"Calling all web designers"...

[F|E|S|T]

Hey, thought some of you may be able to help give me some advice...

Basically, I'm coming to the end of a 2 year course in Multimedia and I'm beginning to think about a career in web design or similar. I know quite a bit about programs such as dreamweaver, flash, director, photoshop etc but I'm finding that most of the jobs advertised are asking for knowledge on scripting such as asp, php, jsp, xml as well as design skills. We haven't been taught any of these other than html and some basic javascript.

I'm feeling a bit unenthusiastic now as I feel I may need to learn these in order to get the slightest chance of a look in, as it doesn't take a genius these days to knock stuff together in dreamweaver or p/shop.

What I want to know is where should I start and what ones are more valued in the industry. I don't want to be a 'web developer' but somewhere between the two.

Or what good books can you recommend to get me started?

Any advice would be good, in relation to this industry :)

[CheechLizard]

I found php easier to learn than asp & jsp, it just seemed to make more sense to me and I found it easier to read.

You'd probably be better off looking for some tutorials on the web and then deciding which you prefer.

[JinxM]

If you're looking for a career, then you should go with ASP or JSP. While PHP is a very good language, its open source and so there isn't anyone ultimately responsible for it. That tends to put companies off in my expirence. They tend not to be comfortable with open source and feel re-assured (surprisingly!) by the Microsoft name.

JSP is probably harder but the pay for being a JSP developer tends to be higher.

ASP has the advantage of plugging into most Microsoft technology. For example, you can read a user's domain log in and check it against active directory or a PDC. ASP also lets you make use of Office Web Components so you can use Word's spellchecker or create an office doc dynamically. Since most companies have an MS infrastructure, ASP becomes a very powerful language. And considering its VBScript, it gives you a good grounding for VBA for all those Office macros and even VB itself.

W3Schools.com is a good place to start for almost anything "web." http://www.w3schools.com/asp/default.asp for an ASP tutorial. Then there is http://www.4guysfromrolla.com/ which is an excellent resource for asp.

ASP also leads nicely to ASP.net. tbh, if you're going to learn something from scratch right now, .net is the way to go.

Lastly, "web developer" is the only thing that separates us from every 15 year old with a copy of front page in the eyes of most small companies.

www.consortium.uk.net for some cheap ASP enabled space. Tell them I sent you. :)

[The Dark One]

I sort of agree with JinxM, alot of large companies will avoid the likes of PHP but on the other hand it tends to be used alot if for smaller scale stuff. We use PHP alot for small clients who want very quick cheap solutions.

JSP is the platform of choice for enterprise solutions for sure as it scales very well. Java also carries across from desktop to mobile to web.

One thing that always puts me off applying for jobs saying "web developer .. must design and code" .. design and coding are two very very different skills. Here we have a team of coders who do everything from html up, we pretty much head up the development. We also have a team of designers who design the interface and site, they may build a HTML site but don't go near the JavaScript or any scripting. Also, they're more commonly using Director or Flash with the UI to produce multimedia presentations. Because of the difference in skills, i.e. coder needs to be logical where as a designer is more concenred with other aspects, I personally very much prefer keeping the two skill sets apart.

If you have a good grounding in Director and the ability to design the applications well, you should stand a very good chance of finding a job somewhere in the country.

[F|E|S|T]

Cheers for the advice guys, thats brilliant.

Thats how I see it Dark One, a web designer and then a web developer, but so many of the jobs advertised are demanding a combination of the two skill sets. I see them as two seperate career paths, but I suppose their are just trying to get what they can for their money.

I think I will go for asp and jsp then to start with and let php come later.

Yeah I've done a few things with Director... Last year I produced a cdrom for E-Learning, some goverment thing, and they chose it to go into production. That was part of a college assignment.

[The Dark One]

Oh, and using photoshop is not the same as designing a website :)

[F|E|S|T]

I'm fully aware of that, its just a tool that aids the making of one, as with any interface design.

Unfotunately, anyone can knock up some nifty looking stuff in programs like p/shop using the tutorials spread across the net. But when it comes to them applying these graphics to a functional web site it usually goes tits up.

Luckily I already know a fair bit on the subject, having a programmer as a boyf, but some of the people on my course haven't even established the basics.

This is the reason I want to put my self a little above the rest ;)

So I'm guessing you guys work in the industry... if so was it a hard one to get into? Or what sort of things did you do to get an advantage over the rest?

[The Dark One]

I’ve been in the industry for about 4 years now, working for the same company but we’ve been through a couple of buyouts. Getting into the field was quite easy, previously I worked as a technician at a university and took it upon myself to maintain their website so built up a skill set before going for an interview. Since progressed to head up a development team here, much more involved in strategy than coding currently.

Was lucky getting in when I did, I’d already picked up a good degree in computing and the dot com revolution was going on, since then the bubble has burst and the amount of work coming out way has dried up. We still work for small external clients but today we’re owned by an international corporation and service internal requirements, from screensavers to various web based applications.

Getting into the industry today is pretty difficult, companies are tending to keep work internal so either having somebody in an IT department up skill and maintain the site. We hardly see any new web work, if its anything its web based systems which are more coder heavy. Most of the CV’s we get end up on my desk these days so I have the luxury of seeing what perspective employees are out there if I went for a new job. There are two clear groups .. those with just a degree who want a job who usually have difficulty hitting the ground running and those who’ve had 20+ years coding experience who will settle for half of what they were on to stay in employment …

[JinxM]

I've been doing this about 5 years. I started as tech support in Libraries. Amazingly, there was no web site for the library authority so I built one and used the time to learn PHP to make a news posting app. Then I learnt ASP and got a job as a web developer for a local authority.

After a couple of years I quit to go freelance which is working out OK. I now deal with companies and individuals building web applications - usually to run on their intranet. Companies love web apps because all they need is a browser. Many companies are begining to reach a point where they need to upgrade all their PCs in order to run the next version of some app they have. I go in and say things like

"Nah. I'll do a web application to run on the intranet - all you'll need is a browser which you already have."

They are very happy about that because it saves them money and frees up budget with which to pay me :)

Most people care about expirence. I can talk about delivering eGovernment projects and point them at web apps I've coded which gives them more confidence in me than a bit of paper. That said, I am doing an Open Uni degree in IT at the moment :)

I agree that in an ideal world, coding and design are 2 separate jobs. I often farm out the design work to freelance designers but companies usually don't understand that there is a difference.

Your best bet is to get a domain name and some web space, write some applications and get them out there so you can point people to them on your CV. Also, Content Management Systems (CMS) are the "new" thing. Get hold of as many as you can and play with them. Expirence of CMS is a big plus as most larger companies are starting to use them to manage their web/intranet sites. Usually they're bespoke systems but the expirence will help you hit the ground running.

Hmm, that was a long post...

[Matt]

I hate the way that design is bundled in with code jobs. You are either a good designer or a good programmer - I imagine someone with genuine talent in both is extremely rare!

I've seen lots of jobs where they expect you to have a lot of indepth knowledge of using ASP/.net, SQL Server, Access , Javascript, general IIS guru etc, and then expect a huge artistic portfolio as well. Damn market needs to pickup so they can employ one person to do one job, not one person to do the job or two or three people like it is now ;/

[qui]

Yes and no, depends on your definition of 'design' I guess.

I can 'design' relatively good (imo) layouts but complicated graphics wise (backgrounds, logos, etc) I can't do to save my life.

[F|E|S|T]

Yeah I have to agree Matt, its fecking annoying. I've been seeing Web Designer jobs advertised who also want you to know Java in with that as well. Ffs, thats a seperate career path imo.

I'm happy to design the interface, but a bit reluctant when the backend starts getting involved.

I suppose I'm quite lucky in the way that if I was to go freelance then my partner is a dba so while I can kick out the interface he can provide the backend gubbins to go with it. I just feel I don't yet have the experience required to go down the freelance route yet.

Hmmm wny didn't I pick a straight forward career :roll:

[JinxM]

The problem is that design includes HTML standards. Designers makes slick looking web site which won't work in all browsers and aren't WAI complient. So the designer does need to know an awful lot about web stuff too.

Still, I do agree - design = 1 job. code = 1 job :)

[The Dark One]

I disagree, the designer designs the ideal solution, then its upto the coder to define whats realistic or the best technology to use. For example, it may be better to use Flash for some dynamic stuff, or alterantives can be looked at

[JinxM]

Depends on the environment and web site you're aiming for I s'pose.

[F|E|S|T]

My webby's are browser compatible and at this moment I'm just a 'designer'.

I see the designer as the one who designs the layout/structure/look of the site along with compatibilty issues and html, javascript and flash etc etc...

I then see the coder as the one who builds the web servers etc, and all the back end techie stuff!

Its when a designer is asked to know Java and programming as well that I think its beginning to take the p1ss.

[Ruddles]

Agreed. Im happy coding, but couldn't come up with a decent design if one slapped me in the face. Just as I wouldn't expect someone who can design a great webiste layout to be able to write some huge online catalogue and order script (although im sure they could if they tried, to all those people about to flame me).

[The Dark One]

My webby's are browser compatible and at this moment I'm just a 'designer'.

I see the designer as the one who designs the layout/structure/look of the site along with compatibilty issues and html, javascript and flash etc etc...

I then see the coder as the one who builds the web servers etc, and all the back end techie stuff!

Its when a designer is asked to know Java and programming as well that I think its beginning to take the p1ss.

Our break between design and code is much more the other way. The coder has to have input into the UI design. The code design aspect is more of a software specification task done by both, but controlled by the coder. "Coding" ranges from the basic HTML templates (of which our designers do sometimes) to the comlpete backend e-commerce solution, but their remit it ONLY to make sure the site looks good, not to define what is / is not possible.

If you went to that extent, the delieverd solution would be limited to the designers understanding of what is technically possible in code, which is utter rubbish. Seeing as the envalope on designs are always being pushed, its not until the designer says "can we do xyz" that is known if its even possible half the time!

[F|E|S|T]

Yeah , I see your point. That makes more sense too. I'd be happy working like that :)

[D33]

I can't code. Never been good at math and takes me ages to learn simple programming languages.

Yet, as has been said in this thread several times now, a lot of "web design" jobs are bundled with "must be able to code in..." as well. Unfortunately it's that sort of thing that helped move me away from the whole web-design market.

In one sense it's a shame because I guess I feel I might of been able to add something to this market with maybe a few unique deisgns but on the other hand the market is seriously overflowed with people who, for reasons somewhat beyond me, actually think they're good at web-coding or web-designing when in reality they should be banned from using FTP programmes to keep their crap off the internet.

So, is the loss of a possible web-designer a big thing in this day and age? Not really.

There's too many people after a job in web-design at the moment. The companies who know FA want their staff trained in something like Frontpage and the companies who know what they're doing want people who can code and design, which, in my opinion, is a bad thing. They're two completely different groups.

Meh, I'm babbling, but you get the point.

[F|E|S|T]

Yeah I agree there are probably too many people after jobs in web design these days and I don't think it pays anymore to just be able to design websites. You need to be able to offer more.

The route I'm taking is if I know 'enough' about alot of things then that is going to appeal more than someone who can play with just photoshop and dreamweaver... I hope!

I can design and create interactive cd-roms, websites, flash, video and also learning 3DS Max 6. Perhaps that makes me a 'multimedia designer' then, but I currently enjoy the web/animation side of it more. But all the web jobs mean I'd need to know coding too :(

Bah, this lark's too much blimming hassle tbh!

I can't code.

Unfortunately it's that sort of thing that helped move me away from the whole web-design market.

So if you can't code and is not a web designer what iz u? I mean what did you end up doing?

[D33]

Dunno, not thought of a new career.

Thinking of joining the police maybe.
Not got round to it.

[JinxM]

The thing is, a lot of coders can't design :) There is a lot of freelance design work up for grabs. I occasionally farm out design work when the site needs to be really slick because my design abilities are fairly low :)

[rychan]

Thankfully I'm kinda posessing a cross breed of the skills imo although yeah, the coding is in php, javascript, xhtml, css but once again , imo to be a decent webdesigner you must hand code everything! dreamweaver is a tool for the lazier designer (textpad / photoshop / flash purist speaking here) and it's surprising how hard it can be to push forward 'new' ideas to companies, particularly those with ...ahem... marketing departments... they'll always get in yer way :/

[JinxM]

Dreamweaver and Ultradev are rapid development tools. They're outstanding at that but people often don't realise that they can only take you so far. Coding means rolling up your sleeves and digging it imho :)