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Old 24-Nov-2015, 14:41   #121
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http://www.theguardian.com/world/liv...b00f67a4bed947

Oh dear

Putin:

"Do they want to make Nato serve ISIS? I understand that every state has its own regional interests and we’ve always respected that, but we will never allow the kind of crime that happened to today to take place. And of course we hope that the international community will find the strength to come together and fight against the common evil."

edit: To be honest I think the correct response here is for the other NATO countries to slap Turkey on the wrist and make them grovel. This is an escalation too far and if the USA comes out and defends Turkey's actions then I don't even want to think where this will go.
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Old 24-Nov-2015, 14:45   #122
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Haha he doesn't like it up him.
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Old 24-Nov-2015, 14:49   #123
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Even if the plane had strayed into Turkish airspace, there was no need to shoot it down.
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Old 24-Nov-2015, 14:53   #124
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to be ignored 10 times though and not knowing the intention of the plane, I guess they felt nervous.

What language do they communicate in though? English?
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Old 24-Nov-2015, 16:20   #125
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I'm certain the phrase "GTFO" is pretty universal.
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Old 24-Nov-2015, 16:26   #126
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Originally Posted by cunning-stunt View Post
Even if the plane had strayed into Turkish airspace, there was no need to shoot it down.
The russians have been at it constantly. Fuck em and their knob waving.
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Old 24-Nov-2015, 17:22   #127
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The problem is that Russia for all its faults has a tendency to follow up its nob waving with a good f**king. I suspect that some nice hardware for causing Turkey issues may fall into the hands of the PKK...
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Old 24-Nov-2015, 17:34   #128
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Great Turkey can use the massive pile of Russian shit they already own to fend it off. Seriously though, you're the endlessly ruthless political pragmatist aren't you? This sort of thing is the cost of doing business the way Russia have right? They're too used to pissing around on the borders of countries that ignore them like the UK and Sweden. they've found someone who gives less shits about their provocative Maskirovka antics.
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Old 24-Nov-2015, 17:50   #129
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Turkey is the one of the biggest importers of American arms not Russian.In 2013 it imported just shy of 2.5 billion worth of goods. It has a small amount of Russian light weaponry and a couple of hundred old Russian APC's the rest is all Western tech
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Old 24-Nov-2015, 17:50   #130
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The russians have been at it constantly. Fuck em and their knob waving.
I agree, but everyone knows what Russia are in that area for, and there's no way they were going to attack Turkey.
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Old 24-Nov-2015, 17:51   #131
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I am pragmatic enough to not blow a single stray Russian jet out of the sky on the edge of my border during an international shit storm certainly. I can't say i'm overly enamoured of a NATO member antagonising the Russian bear over something so meaningless - I've seen Threads !
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Old 24-Nov-2015, 17:55   #132
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It's obviously not meaningless to the people who matter.
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Old 24-Nov-2015, 18:36   #133
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Its the fact that Turkeys reaction matters that concerns me

Back in the 80s when 20m able bodied Turks as a land force and they were militarily backed secular nation, it all made sense.
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Old 24-Nov-2015, 20:08   #134
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Originally Posted by popej View Post
http://www.theguardian.com/world/liv...b00f67a4bed947

Oh dear

Putin:

"Do they want to make Nato serve ISIS? I understand that every state has its own regional interests and we’ve always respected that, but we will never allow the kind of crime that happened to today to take place. And of course we hope that the international community will find the strength to come together and fight against the common evil."

edit: To be honest I think the correct response here is for the other NATO countries to slap Turkey on the wrist and make them grovel. This is an escalation too far and if the USA comes out and defends Turkey's actions then I don't even want to think where this will go.
If I remember correctly they weren't exactly helpful or forthcoming with assistance when a plane full of civilians was shot down in Ukraine where rebels, who (obviously) had no funding or armaments from Russia at all, were fighting.

Why should they expect any understanding, assistance or "strength" now?
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Old 24-Nov-2015, 21:32   #135
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The difference (and its a big difference) is that Turkey is a NATO country, Ukraine is not. No one is suggesting we offer any of those emotions to Russia (lets be honest they won't care), just save shooting down Russian planes for when you really want to do it.

Knowing how cynical Putin is I could almost imagine him ordering this, i.e. to get shot down by a trigger happy Turkey to destabilize NATO further.
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Old 25-Nov-2015, 01:47   #136
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Ignoring the cause for a moment, only savages shoot a man in a parachute.
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Old 25-Nov-2015, 07:46   #137
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Ignoring the cause for a moment, only savages shoot a man in a parachute.
Or behead people. Or set them on fire. Or squish them with tanks. Or stone women to death for getting raped.

And you were expecting what?
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Old 25-Nov-2015, 09:35   #138
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Shooting/killing pilots who have ejected and parachuting to the ground is a war crime under Protocol 1, Article 42 of the Geneva Convention.

https://www.icrc.org/ihl/INTRO/470

If they are on the ground and attempting to escape or shooting at you then that's different.

As for what Russia is going to do to Turkey, my money would be cutting of the gas supply. Just like they just did to Ukraine. Russia supplies over 50% of the natural gas to Turkey and it's pretty cold over there in winter.
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Old 25-Nov-2015, 09:42   #139
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Shooting/killing pilots who have ejected and parachuting to the ground is a war crime under Protocol 1, Article 42 of the Geneva Convention.
Again, what's your point? Everybody knows the above, but small bands of guerilla fighters in the mountains aren't going to give a shit about the Geneva Convention, so why bring it up?
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Old 25-Nov-2015, 09:49   #140
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Particularly if it's one of the groups that the Russki's were bombing , I can't see them ever not trying to get the pilots. I honestly don't see anything more serious occurring , Russia has been taking the piss with it fly by's and buzzing peoples air space with fighters and bombers . Equally if it's true the plane was only in Turkish airspace for 20 odd seconds and was on the way out then severely OTT from Turkey , but it may make the Russians think again before being quite as silly as they have been....
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Old 25-Nov-2015, 09:57   #141
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We need a UN mandate to 'go to war' otherwise it's not legal. Stupid shit like the complete disregard for the rules of war helps push the UN in that direction.

If the UN passes such a resolution allowing full scale military action (usually under the guise of 'peacekeeping') against ISIS then politically it gets far easier (for any country) to get involved up to and including boots on the ground. Further more the UN peacekeeping forces stick around until the job is actually done, rebuilding after the fact (something they are reasonably good at after lots of practice in Africa).

These are points coalition forces have failed at previously in our adventures in the middle east.
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Old 25-Nov-2015, 10:12   #142
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I just want to know what they think they can do against hundreds of small, separate bands of guerillas living in caves. It's not like some general can say "ooh look, a tank brigade, go destroy it". They're going to be up against the same logistical nightmare that the Americans had in Vietnam, where it's piss-easy to take a hill, but you can't keep it, and 5 minutes after you've left, the little fuckers are back.
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Old 25-Nov-2015, 10:15   #143
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Stupid shit like the complete disregard for the rules of war helps push the UN in that direction
ISIS have been disregarding the "rules of war" since day one. It's only now, when various leaders see a way to score political points, that they want to go to war.

Leave the twats to it, there's no reason for us to get involved in something that wasn't our fucking business in the first place.

Again.
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Old 25-Nov-2015, 10:39   #144
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It will become our business as soon as they launch a terrorist attack in the UK. Hence the pressure to deal with it now, rather than after the fact.

When boots are on the ground it would be nothing like Vietnam, ISIS have no where near the numbers the Vietcong had.
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Old 25-Nov-2015, 11:00   #145
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Talk to me about this "dealing with it" thing, you're a bit vague around the edges.
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Old 25-Nov-2015, 11:00   #146
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It will become our business as soon as they launch a terrorist attack in the UK. Hence the pressure to deal with it now, rather than after the fact.

When boots are on the ground it would be nothing like Vietnam, ISIS have no where near the numbers the Vietcong had.
No it'll be like Iraq.
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Old 25-Nov-2015, 11:03   #147
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From;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34917485

Quote:
But he said the incident pointed to an "ongoing problem" with Russian action in Syria, saying if Russia had been targeting IS, rather than "moderate" Syrian opposition forces, such incidents would be unlikely.
There you have it. Russia are doing what we all know they're doing which is massacre Assad's opposition. I know there's a seriously grey area there but I'm prepared to take Turkey's opinion on the difference.
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Old 25-Nov-2015, 11:18   #148
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According to Sky, one of the pilots has been rescued.
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Old 25-Nov-2015, 11:46   #149
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ISIS have no where near the numbers the Vietcong had.
I'd appreciate a link to your source for the precise troop numbers. Or was that a guess?
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Old 25-Nov-2015, 11:59   #150
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Ashen has a reputation beyond reputeAshen has a reputation beyond reputeAshen has a reputation beyond reputeAshen has a reputation beyond reputeAshen has a reputation beyond reputeAshen has a reputation beyond reputeAshen has a reputation beyond reputeAshen has a reputation beyond reputeAshen has a reputation beyond reputeAshen has a reputation beyond reputeAshen has a reputation beyond repute
CIA estimate was 20-35k in 2014. Still cant believe that at one point just under 1k of the fuckers routed 30k Iraq troops
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/09/11/wo...raq/index.html
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It is true, I inadvertently gave a Labrador a handjob. You can quote me on that! - Raptor192

Quote:
I walked outside and took mother natures load to the face. You can quote me on that! - Raptor192
to Ashen [ash-en]

1.To perform an amazing act without witness.
2.To have the worst of luck when playing in groups, although having the best intentions an act occurs which usually results in multiple deaths, maimings or destruction of property.

Last edited by Ashen; 25-Nov-2015 at 12:07.
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