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Old 23-Aug-2015, 18:56   #61
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wtf lol, worse than mars bars give you cancer
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Old 23-Aug-2015, 21:42   #62
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Originally Posted by Inertiaman View Post
I'm no fan of Corbyn, but the Daily Mail is a collective sack of printed and online shite, owned by Lord Rothermere, who really, really would love to be named the most right-wing man in Britain.

His ancestor, and the paper, once supported Fascism quite openly;

https://futiledemocracy.wordpress.co...-mail-fascism/
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Old 25-Aug-2015, 08:15   #63
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This from the FT hits the mark:

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http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/85d51748-4...#ixzz3joCRtfTk

If a socialist peacenik becomes leader of Britain’s Labour party on September 12, it is not somehow a problem for the Conservatives, too. Tories high-fiving each other at the prospect of facing Jeremy Corbyn should not “be careful what they wish for”. They should not “reflect” on what his sensational climb “means” and “engage” with his “movement”. They do not “underestimate” him, they estimate him correctly — that is, derisively. There are no hidden dimensions or unconsidered angles here.
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Old 25-Aug-2015, 10:02   #64
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Bit harsh but he's probably right. Which is no good thing. It's sad (and worrying) that the political system rewards a narrow breadth of discourse and promotes characterless candidates. Call Corbyn what you like but he has at least inspired some (and mostly young) people to take an interest.
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Old 25-Aug-2015, 10:12   #65
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Corbyn aside, it's telling of one's own comfort zone when "socialist" appears to be a slur on it's own.
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Old 25-Aug-2015, 12:08   #66
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Let alone peace lover.

YOU AREN'T A WAR MONGER YOU MUST BE AN INAPPROPRIATE LEADER!!!!
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If Rooney kicks a ball at the World Cup then I will eat my underpants
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Old 25-Aug-2015, 12:30   #67
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Peacenik and peacelover aren't the same thing. I'm quite happy conflating "socialist" with "incapable of winning the 2020 election".
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Old 25-Aug-2015, 12:51   #68
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If you keep leaning on that metric you're going to snap it.
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Old 25-Aug-2015, 13:16   #69
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Ha! I can replace it with "ensuring that for a generation of swing voters, Labour will always be the party that elected “that guy”, and only ever one rush of blood to the head away from another folly."
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Old 25-Aug-2015, 13:44   #70
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Here, borrow a "duty to represent the wishes of the electorate" to balance that load towards the left a little.

It's of course not an unreasonable position to say the first responsibility of a leader is to win the GE, but it's conversationally reductive and can surely only apply to a party with at least an electoral mandate as the key opposition. That's not Labour now. The SNP didn't aim for a totally unrealistic GE win there last time they elected. They wanted Scotland and got it. The Greens and UKIP sure as hell didn't aim at a GE win. They targeted specific seats and regions to increase their seats. Why, under your logic, must Labour commit to a 2020 GE win at the cost of all other strategy when you wouldn't dream of suggesting the same for other parties with commensurate opportunity?

When you're as far into the wilderness as Labour currently are I maintain that the criteria of leadership selection and strategy should broaden to include clearer policy, better grass roots representation and an increased share of the opposition vote because short of absolute crisis over the next few years from cons/SNP they don't have a Hope in Fuck.
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Old 25-Aug-2015, 13:57   #71
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I'll keep copying bits out of that article because I think it's spot on:

Quote:
No, a Corbynite Labour party will not cause trouble for the Tories. Mr Cameron will not find him a confounding adversary across the parliamentary dispatch box. Demonstrations will not shake the government. They will not even shake the streets they are held on. Politics will not be reinvented. Mr Corbyn is not “on to something” with his critique of capitalism and western foreign policy. This is a passing commotion whose principal victims are the millions of low-paid Britons who need a serious party of the centre-left.
Electing Corbyn will not build a grassroots, it'll not build an increased share of the vote (either in 2020 or beyond) and it'll doom Labour to the wilderness, not bring them in. If the second largest party has no ambition to take power and no ambition to change policy, if it wants to become the party of perpetual opposition and leave the actual process of government to the Tories, then what's the point?
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Old 25-Aug-2015, 14:29   #72
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You may as well ask what is the point of proportional representation and the two party system.
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Old 25-Aug-2015, 14:34   #73
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Is Corbyn going to implement electoral reform with his 20% of the vote as well as nationalising the railways and reversing austerity?
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Old 25-Aug-2015, 14:39   #74
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If he eloquently shows exactly how much bullshit austerity is then yes, I expect him to do a lot better than you predict.
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Old 25-Aug-2015, 14:45   #75
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I've said words to this effect before, but again a professional writer puts it much better than me:

Quote:
As for the popular insurrection against austerity, your columnist invites you to wake him up when it happens. Students and trade unions will march through London, but then they always do. Mr Corbyn will rouse dog-on-a-string radicals at folk music festivals in the West Country. None of this will congeal into a national movement that draws in swing voters. Britons have had five years to revolt against Mr Cameron and his fiscal policy. As ever, they have proven to be a terrible disappointment to the left’s moral visionaries.
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Old 25-Aug-2015, 14:51   #76
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But austerity is demonstrably shit for the economy let alone the poor, I don't think you have to be a hippy to be convinced to vote against the party damaging the economy...
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Old 25-Aug-2015, 14:53   #77
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It's really not demonstrably shit because of the complete absence of a counter-factual, and no amount of Danny Blanchflower promising 10% unemployment is going to change that. The public simply doesn't believe anyone who's been telling them how bad things are going to be, because those people were saying the same things 5 years ago.
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Old 25-Aug-2015, 15:13   #78
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By any meaningful measure the economy outside the square mile is toilet. Our economic recovery from 2008 has been toilet. Compared to other developed economies our economy and its recovery is toilet. The Torys can only try to pin the blame on the Labour for so long (when it was really the banks). The 'lack of counter factuals' argument is basically saying 'we don't know what would have happened if stimulus is applied' right? That's rubbish because there are plenty examples of stimulus around the world and only 2 true examples of ideological austerity: The UK and Greece. The Greek's isn't even voluntary. The two reasons the Tories have gotten away for it for so long are

1/ The support of the right wing press
2/ The failure of the previous Labour opposition to provide any meaningful critique of austerity

Corbyn at least should rectify point 2 even if swimming against number 1 could make it futile.
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Old 25-Aug-2015, 15:14   #79
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What does toilet mean again?
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Old 25-Aug-2015, 15:19   #80
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Below Osborne's own predictions could be one definition? Another could be massively underperforming next to other developed economies post 2008? Another could be the longest sustained drop in wages for 100 years? Take your pick, there are others.
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Old 25-Aug-2015, 15:28   #81
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Is Corbyn going to implement electoral reform with his 20% of the vote as well as nationalising the railways and reversing austerity?
Ignoring the parts of that which are second-hand hyperbole, Labour would hardly be on their own if they pushed for electoral reform would they?

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Old 25-Aug-2015, 15:33   #82
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Below Osborne's own predictions could be one definition? Another could be massively underperforming next to other developed economies post 2008? Another could be the longest sustained drop in wages for 100 years? Take your pick, there are others.
What underperformance? Canada didn't suffer a financial crisis and U.S. had a gigantic stimulus from shale. Versus Germany and France it looks fine.

http://statlinks.oecdcode.org/102015061P1G001.XLS
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Old 25-Aug-2015, 15:34   #83
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Ignoring the parts of that which are second-hand hyperbole, Labour would hardly be on their own if they pushed for electoral reform would they?
Absolutely, but you can't do shit if you've gifted the Tories a majority for a decade or more.
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Old 25-Aug-2015, 16:03   #84
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Feeling like this is recursive now, but hasn't that already happened?
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Old 25-Aug-2015, 17:08   #85
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Yeah sorry we're going over long since divided ground. I suspect this whole leadership contest will prove horribly divisive and prevent the Labour Party from presenting the centre-left platform that can win an election and implement change. That said, the sooner they get over this farce and get a "clean" Blairite (who can get away without being called a Blairite) back behind the wheel the less damage that'll be done. As long as it's not that twerp Umuna...

I doubt Corbyn will even get close to contesting an election and he'll not make it past 18 months of a weekly battering in PMQs.
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Old 25-Aug-2015, 20:16   #86
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The thing that amuses me is that to get the Labour party elected only needs about 2 policies

1. Stop immigration - serious that's lost you 5-10% of your base
2. Frack the crap out of the north, people like high paid blue collar jobs
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Old 25-Aug-2015, 21:05   #87
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The people that bleet on about the financial crisis not being labour's fault but that of the international economic conditions prevailing at the time (this is predominantly true) are often the same people that in the same breath then criticise the Tories for certain aspects of the economy (eg no wage inflation), as if now this country's economics exist in isolation.

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Old 25-Aug-2015, 22:54   #88
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Old 26-Aug-2015, 08:17   #89
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By any meaningful measure the economy outside the square mile is toilet. Our economic recovery from 2008 has been toilet. Compared to other developed economies our economy and its recovery is toilet.
Is that true? I thought our recovery has been one of the best?
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Old 26-Aug-2015, 08:57   #90
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IMF figures: http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2015/update/01/
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