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Old 12-Nov-2015, 01:01   #31
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Old 13-Nov-2015, 09:17   #32
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I'm not really bothered by the government being able to browse my online habits, emails or messages as I have nothing to hide and figure they'll be spending most of their time looking at the Ahmeds and Mohammeds of this world.

What I do have a problem with is the convenient arrests of suspect terrorists a week after the bill is announced to win public support. Call me a cynic but there is no way that is a coincidence.
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Old 13-Nov-2015, 09:40   #33
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The nothing to hide, nothing to fear argument is the most illogical fallacy borne of lazy thinking of recent times.
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Old 13-Nov-2015, 09:47   #34
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I'm not really bothered by the government being able to browse my online habits, emails or messages as I have nothing to hide and figure they'll be spending most of their time looking at the Ahmeds and Mohammeds of this world.

What I do have a problem with is the convenient arrests of suspect terrorists a week after the bill is announced to win public support. Call me a cynic but there is no way that is a coincidence.
That's almost as stupid as the time you told us you don't use a virus scanner or firewall because you are careful and only open pages and emails you trust.
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Old 13-Nov-2015, 09:57   #35
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The nothing to hide, nothing to fear argument is the most illogical fallacy borne of lazy thinking of recent times.
It's often attributed to Goebbels too.
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Old 13-Nov-2015, 10:02   #36
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Except that I do use a firewall and virus scanner. That wasn't exactly what I said now is it? The comment about websites was specifically torrent related, and I scan every torrent before using it.

I don't see how it's stupid to have a different opinion on the communications bill, I just don't particularly care about it. There are far more important things in the world than worrying about if they are looking at messages, website history and porn habits
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Old 13-Nov-2015, 10:15   #37
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So you feel quite confident that the government can and will handle this data in a manner that wont get leaked, hacked or misused? I'm more bothered about the fact that if the bill passes we will probably see the information handed over to one of the governments trusty security firms with an impeccable track record, you know, someone like G4S.
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Old 13-Nov-2015, 10:35   #38
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I don't see how it's stupid to have a different opinion on the communications bill, I just don't particularly care about it. There are far more important things in the world than worrying about if they are looking at messages, website history and porn habits
Right now there are. But there's the other parts of the bill that will forbid you from talking about it if you are investigated for whatever reason. Closed courts etc. Pretty fucking insidious if you ask me.

Also, Rainy's post.
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Old 13-Nov-2015, 10:35   #39
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Most members of the public will probably think Investigatory-Powers Bill is the law enforcement friend of Postman Pat and Fireman Sam.
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Old 13-Nov-2015, 11:51   #40
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I'm not really bothered by the government being able to browse my online habits, emails or messages as I have nothing to hide and figure they'll be spending most of their time looking at the Ahmeds and Mohammeds of this world.

What I do have a problem with is the convenient arrests of suspect terrorists a week after the bill is announced to win public support. Call me a cynic but there is no way that is a coincidence.
You have badly misunderstood the breadth and implications of the current bill. Given it's impact on the people you represent professionally you might want to read up.

Furthermore, even if your scenario was the start and end of it, the data is actually being collected by ISP's and you might notice that one of those recently got utterly turned over by a schoolboy 400k app available for free on the internet. Good luck with that.
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Old 13-Nov-2015, 12:03   #41
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The only way the data would be secure is if it wasn't collected. It would be such a irresistible target to hackers, especially those sponsored by nation states (good luck keeping those guys out).
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Old 13-Nov-2015, 13:49   #42
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I'm not really bothered by the government being able to browse my online habits, emails or messages as I have nothing to hide and figure they'll be spending most of their time looking at the Ahmeds and Mohammeds of this world.

What I do have a problem with is the convenient arrests of suspect terrorists a week after the bill is announced to win public support. Call me a cynic but there is no way that is a coincidence.
All very good until you do something that someone in power doesn't like and so they check your history, find that a browser ad once accessed a server that they deem dodgy, then raid your house take your machine, find a video of a man in a honey monster suit having woopie with a woman then charge you under the "extreme porn" law (real story would you believe) and suddenly you will perform oral to please said person in power.
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Old 13-Nov-2015, 14:42   #43
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You just ruined sugar puffs for me now

Anyway goose is more into rage porn, I swear he climaxed once on mumble when he got trolled by ink, soo much rage.
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Old 16-Nov-2015, 11:45   #44
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The transcript from the Science & Technology committee meeting is now available.

http://data.parliament.uk/writtenevi...ral/24378.html

Some choice quotes:

Quote:
Matthew Hare (ISP-Gigaclear): Or even trading with UK citizens. Why would you buy something from a UK company if you thought it might have a back door that it might not have if you bought it from a Russian, Venezuelan or Chilean company?

John Shaw (Sophos): Russia might not be the best example.
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Q5 Jim Dowd: I detect a certain lack of enthusiasm for the Bill on your part. Mr Hare and Mr Shaw, you have already mentioned this: how feasible would it be for ISPs and communication service providers to comply with the additional measures outlined in the Bill?

James Blessing (ISPA): The easiest way of saying it is that they will find it very simple if they are given an infinite budget. If you give me lots of money, I can do this for you.
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Q42 Graham Stringer: If it is longer than the existence of the universe, it is not a lot of help.

John Shaw: It is rather like the internet budget. With infinite time you can crack anything.
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Q49 Carol Monaghan: Is the cloud currently in one physical location? I am assuming by the shakes of the head that it is not. How easy do these locations make it for surveillance or hackers to access them?

James Blessing: The cloud is a short term for other people’s computers. I do not mean other people’s home computers; I mean servers resting in data centres. In theory, there are data centres and, therefore, a concentration of servers in one location, which technically should make it easier to serve a warrant on the provider in that data centre and do interception to capture a particular thing. The problem is that they are distributed around the world for back‑up purposes. You run one in the UK, or more likely Ireland at the minute, one in the US and maybe one in Asia, so that you have very good geographic diversity.
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Old 16-Nov-2015, 11:52   #45
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Q11 Jim Dowd: On cost, Mr Blessing says that you need an infinite budget.

Matthew Hare: It will be less than infinite, but it will still be pretty big.

John Shaw: Everything is less than infinite.
Do you get the impression they're not taking this particularly seriously
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Old 16-Nov-2015, 11:57   #46
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Heh, found this one too.

Quote:
Q54 Dr Mathias: Are service providers using it already for surveillance?

James Blessing: Without specifically referencing any service providers, lots of them are and lots of them are not. Once upon a time, when bandwidth was incredibly expensive, quite a few people had a deep packet inspection box, not to look at the content but to try to slow down content that could take time to be delivered—that was not urgent.

-snip-

Matthew Hare: It improved the quality of delivery to customers, so it was delivering the time-critical stuff now and just holding the other bits that could wait a few milliseconds and delivering them later.

John Shaw: So that when you are doing your Skype call you do not get a terrible lag while it is being slowed down because you are downloading the draft Investigatory Powers Bill, or whatever it might be.
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Old 16-Nov-2015, 12:08   #47
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It looks like a fairly open minded committee but all of it's political members and indeed the nature of the drafting itself appear to have no real concept of the transborder nature of services these days. They haven't got a hope in fuck of keeping up really.
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Old 16-Nov-2015, 13:30   #48
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The authorities do not like to be told that something is not technically feasible. A few years ago I discussed this at a networking event with a couple of coppers in a 'cybercrime' division and they didn't get how infeasible it would be for ISPs to collect data and respond to subpoenas on encrypted traffic. I had to give up arguing (as they could be clients) when they were being insufferably stupid and reductive in their reasoning. So they probably went off thinking it was still feasible and that I had agreed
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Old 16-Nov-2015, 15:08   #49
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http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/...ry-powers-bill

Quote:
Originally Posted by The BBC
The Prime Minister, speaking on BBC's Radio 4 Today show, said "I think we should look at the timetable" of the planned draft Investigatory Powers Bill.
So we're stealing plot lines from Spectre are we now Dave?
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Old 16-Nov-2015, 20:21   #50
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i caused this
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Old 18-Nov-2015, 02:13   #51
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So to play Devil's Advocate; how should the current shortfalls be addressed?
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Old 18-Nov-2015, 08:17   #52
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Not by compromising the tools that companies and individuals use to keep their data secure from all the other players in the cyber threat space.
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Old 18-Nov-2015, 09:33   #53
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Indeed, Encryption, VPNs, Tor etc are simply tools. It's the intent behind the usage that matters that's key.
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Old 18-Nov-2015, 22:48   #54
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All well and good saying how it shouldn't be done, but what suggestions do we have for how it should be? I think we're all agreed that the draft bill is going to be very expensive and damn near unworkable.
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Old 18-Nov-2015, 23:10   #55
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Well you have it there. 'It shouldn't be.'
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Old 19-Nov-2015, 03:58   #56
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So in your opinion the current bill is fit for purpose? None of what is being suggested is necessary?

I am in the "this is too much" camp, but at the same time the reasoning behind it, from a counter-intelligence point of view, seems sound. However, I can only imagine that the current way of working must be quite labour-intensive and prone to mistakes if, as I imagine they are working, they are running information through algorithms first.

I mean, Lee Rigby's murderers apparently chatted about it on Facebook beforehand. Where is your tipping point for civil liberty versus the safety of the citizenry?
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Old 19-Nov-2015, 08:16   #57
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For disparate and widespread groups to communicate you need a commonality of tools/systems to do this, they will gravitate towards easy to use and free tools so your first step is to monitor these tools from within the systems themselves, Facebook, Twitter, et al. If they are not doing this already of course.

Therefore you maintain the encryption between client and server. This doesn't capture anyone using specific peer to peer tools with hgh levels of encryption, however you could use code books and send that info in the clear and no one would be any the wiser.

You could prevent someone using non-reversible encryption by using deep packet inspection but it would break every existing SSL based system and for those connections to sites outside of the UK it would probably break all sorts of laws in other territories, as well as being incredibly expensive to monitor the volumes of traffic we are talking about, making the internet less reliable and slowing it down. That's incompatible with the super fast internet highway that other branches of government want Britain to have!
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Old 19-Nov-2015, 09:14   #58
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No, as in the entire bill is unnecessary. It's just a state doing what a state does, and that's gather more. The current powers are fit for purpose.
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Old 19-Nov-2015, 09:37   #59
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To undermine the governments encryption argument further, it turns out the attackers in Paris last Friday coordinated via unencrypted SMS. So nothing in this new bill would of made any difference to the intercepts.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20...pted-sms.shtml

Although it does lend credit to the argument that if you make the haystack big enough it's impossible to find the needles.
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Old 19-Nov-2015, 12:24   #60
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Put it this way Gimpy, in what other possible scenario would a long term policing operation which wastes 99.999% of its time and resources by design ever be seriously considered.
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