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Old 29-Jan-2017, 16:44   #31
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I'm not going to comment on its effectiveness as a security measure - more qualified people than me can speak to that, though I will say your (Orange) link is fairly stated - but I will say he is doing exactly what he said he would do, and I can't see his supporters thinking any less of him for this.

Case in point (@1min in):
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Old 29-Jan-2017, 17:04   #32
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We'll see, but I'm sure there's a decent portion of Republican voters (at least 150,000) who voted for him not expecting him to do (or be able to do) some of the more extreme things he promised. And of course there's his ego...
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Old 29-Jan-2017, 17:38   #33
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38789821

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What do you mean Nadhim Zahawi's going on newsnight? For fucks sake do something!
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Old 29-Jan-2017, 17:45   #34
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I can't see his supporters thinking any less of him for this.


I mean - true I guess. What's your point?
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Old 29-Jan-2017, 18:12   #35
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I know you're being facetious but in its simplest form it could be that that there ain't one side to this and liberalism needs a new approach as opposed to treating / denouncing the opposition as racist, xenophobic, bigots with zero intelligence, as it's currently in the backseat after years of driving.
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Old 29-Jan-2017, 18:26   #36
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I think it's an incredibly west-centric pov that thinks that sort of liberalism that ever been in a driving seat. But then it's hardly the first time you've mistaken Trumps fantasy rhetoric for some kind of change and you're obviously not the only person who finds that message easy to swallow.

But back to facetiousness, I'm more than happy to call all racist xenophobes racist xenophobes, not just white European or American ones. As far as I'm concerned I couldn't care less if we're talking about the Taliban or the Teaparty. All cunts.
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Old 29-Jan-2017, 18:27   #37
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I know you're being facetious but in its simplest form it could be that that there ain't one side to this and liberalism needs a new approach as opposed to treating / denouncing the opposition as racist, xenophobic, bigots with zero intelligence, as it's currently in the backseat after years of driving.
So you want them to lie?
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Old 29-Jan-2017, 18:34   #38
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Well I suppose it comes down to how we define liberalism - so let's not get into that - but it's not a stretch to say that the world has become more liberal, and I'm not denouncing that. Perhaps they're racist, perhaps they've just made a no confidence vote in their leaders' ability to keep them safe after news of marauding Islamist gunmen in Euro capitals. Trump doesn't provide the cure, but neither does telling everyone who doesn't share your world view that they're an idiot or they simply don't get 'it'.

I don't see his election as a paradigm change of itself, but I do see it - and Brexit - as something only recently possible and perhaps the start of such a change, and we need to be careful with how far it goes. Given the premature declarations from the press about the rise of fascism again across Europe I don't feel I'm in the minority in that assessment.
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Old 29-Jan-2017, 19:21   #39
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LOL. There'll be a whole lot more consternation if white people start getting involved.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/01/29/po...cts/index.html
Way to fuck-up the tourism economy if that goes ahead!
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Old 29-Jan-2017, 19:30   #40
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TIL Humanitarianism = Liberalism.
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Old 29-Jan-2017, 19:52   #41
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Meanwhile Bannon sits on the NSC while the Joint Chiefs get invited in when deemed fit. Amazeballs.
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Old 29-Jan-2017, 20:36   #42
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There have got to be a whole strata of very serious people who are now seeing this as a coup.
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Old 29-Jan-2017, 20:54   #43
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Also - lol - if the legal challenge succeeds then a republican Congress is going to have to repeal this order.

That'd hurt.
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Old 30-Jan-2017, 07:04   #44
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Old 30-Jan-2017, 11:02   #45
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38788388

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38795998

Yeah of course it's a populist gesture but TM is PM because of one of those so she should probably respect it.
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Old 30-Jan-2017, 11:08   #46
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Respect it how? By cancelling his visit? Yeah there's a pointless gesture / pyrrhic victory if ever I saw one. Shall we ban him from the UK next because? What about the Chinese and the Saudis - shall we ban all of those too? Who's too fascist for a visit?

Needless to say the appropriate response to disagreeing with someone isn't to eliminate their platform, particularly so when the reason people are now calling for his state visit to be banned is because he's 'banning' people.

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Old 30-Jan-2017, 11:20   #47
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I'm fairly sure Trumps platform isn't contingent on visiting Downing Street. But there's a difference isn't there. People aren't requesting his refusal because he's Orange or Pretend Christian. They're requesting his refusal because his pursuing openly discriminatory policy. Are you honestly equating the two?
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Old 30-Jan-2017, 11:23   #48
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https://twitter.com/TrumpHotels/stat...22377875415040
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Old 30-Jan-2017, 11:37   #49
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The petition will probably succeed in postponing the state visit. Both sides will find some mutually agreeable reason and it will be pushed back to a later date. Not everyone signing that petition would have thought that preventing the US president from coming to the UK (after being invited by the PM) is feasible but they do want to see some tangible consequences to the behaviour of his administration.
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Old 30-Jan-2017, 11:56   #50
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No I'm trying to highlight the obvious hysteria that results in utter bollocks like he's suggested these countries because he hasn't got a trump tower in them, rather than them being selected in good faith by a previous administration, and the ongoing claim that the EO affects green card residents when it's been confirmed it doesn't. If there's one criticism of this is that it's been handled atrociously by the White House. I'm also struggling to understand why Obama's ban of Iraqi refugees didn't attract the same condemnation despite it being - in principle - discriminatory against those of Iraqi origin.

I guess I'm just looking for debate that isn't tinged with mass hysteria at every turn, with calls to ban this, sign that, react first, think later.
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Old 30-Jan-2017, 12:06   #51
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So everyone that disagrees with Trump's policy is hysterical? All these opinions are just mindless herd consensus? No chance at all any of it is individually valid?

Also - some incredible stones on display here talking about the folly of banning/reacting first from someone attempting to defend Trump's amateur bumbling.
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Old 30-Jan-2017, 12:11   #52
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I haven't said that. But I am of the view that calling to ban his state visit does fall more into the hysteria camp. I am also of the view that his policy is being discussed largely out of context to what existed before. I also find it ironic that you started a thread about alternative facts before peddling more.
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Old 30-Jan-2017, 12:17   #53
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Which of my posts aren't true?
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Old 30-Jan-2017, 12:21   #54
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Context is important. As you say the seven countries subject to the ban were not chosen by Trump's administration. But that measure was discussed, voted on, and passed as a bill through Congress not solely as an executive order by the President.

It also wasn't a ban - it merely restricted participation in the US visa waiver program (subject to an interview at a US consulate) normally granted to certain passport holders. You must surely acknowledge that an outright ban by way of executive order is much broader in scope than what was done previously?
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Old 30-Jan-2017, 12:21   #55
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The one where you said Obama banned Iraqi refugees.
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Old 30-Jan-2017, 12:39   #56
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Obama's 'ban' was a response to a specific incident where 2 Iraqi refugees were found to be al Qaeda operatives, and it wasn't really a ban, it was a pause in application processing designed to allow time for fingerprints to be run on located IEDs against refugees being processed.

Trumps actions go further, wider and with no specific threat other than the boogeyman terrorists (here's to remind you that armed toddlers killed 10 times as many Americans as terrorists in the period 2005 - 2016).

There is no equivalency to be drawn between the two actions other than a false equivalency.
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Old 30-Jan-2017, 12:40   #57
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Likewise if we're into semantics it's not a ban, but a temporary suspension . He's extended the policy put in place by the previous administration - of course I acknowledge that it's broader in scope, but what I am expressing is that the underlying policy was already there. This cannot be considered in isolation.

I suspect the EO will be pretty useless in all truth, but contrary to Nersh's view of my position I'm not trying to defend it, just put it into some context and recognise that he's largely been elected to be tough on immigration.
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Old 30-Jan-2017, 12:42   #58
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I believe that falling down the stairs to death beat armed toddlers by a significant margin in turn. Fucking stairs.
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Old 30-Jan-2017, 12:43   #59
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Did you see that when Kim Kardashian tweeted it?
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Old 30-Jan-2017, 12:45   #60
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It's not fucking semantics Andy. It's got nothing to do with semantics. The subjects of criticism are absolutely tangible. He's passed down a half baked order that has no legality and which none of the bodies involved know how to enact. He's ridden roughshod over his own specialist departments to do it and he's created a billion quid of damage to individuals and businesses affected. This policy was not there last week. It's barely there now. It's a crummily drafted childs drawing of a policy that everyone has to try and implement and won't/can't.
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