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Old 20-Feb-2018, 15:47   #301
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I tried to have a look at the BMJ article lung, and its categorised as an editorial, not a research paper, and I couldn't see any way of reading beyond the opening without paying, nor any links to other research at the bottom (just articles with non-research-sounding titles). If you or nersh have been able to read the article could you provide a summary?

For wide-spread diseases with treatment regimes that are carried out by non-specialists, then you want the safety of large-scale controlled trials against placebos and competing treatments). That is a line and this kid is on the wrong side of it. But you can have more than 1 line. I'm not into the details of this case, but if you do have a disease that is only afflicting 9 people at time, with serious consequences, you either abandon these suffers to their fate or you lower the requirements. This seems a reasonable thing to do, not least because if you get it totally wrong you can only kill 9 people.

I believe such options are available, I don't know why they haven't allowed the use of cannabis, but there is in the UK an aversion to it, and I could believe that drugs which are more accepted as "medical" drugs would be easier to approve. My view is there is ample scientific and general knowledge of the harm cannabis can cause. Extensive long term use gives the user a high chance of developing serious mental illnesses. In a well regulated environment that allows recreational use I don't think the risk will be higher than liver disease due to alcoholism. Getting accepted in the US health industry seems to me to be a pretty high barrier that it has cleared, so I think much of the resistance to it is cultural. Certainly it should be possible to make a good cost-benefit analysis in this case.

The "but what about all these other potential factors I've written down in a long list here" argument isn't very compelling to me. Certainly the "maybe its being in Holland" begs the question of "what happens if we give him the drug when hes not in Holland". I assume the kid has been outside his home before without an apparent change in his condition.

THC containing drugs are produced by "big pharma", as listed in the article. They aren't asking for Alfie to be allowed to smoke some home-grown weed. I doubt these drugs are licenced for sale in the Netherlands, in an apparently normal prescription practice, without reasonable testing. The quotation from the home office given in the article (which may be selective) effectively says "It's on my list of banned things, and so nobody can have it, ever", appears to be the antithesis of a scientific or evidence-based conclusion that most here are arguing for.
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Old 20-Feb-2018, 16:14   #302
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I'm sure I can find some white papers, and that you could. but given that you obviously know how much effort it takes to licence product even elsewhere than the UK can it really be in any doubt that research has been conducted a little way beyond "stoned=better". I mean, even the woman representing the health sec mentioned more than four current ongoing projects in the UK alone and they're just ones that have confirmed it's off the market still. There's no complaint about process for mass sale, but exemptions/compassionate use clearly deserves discussion that isn't rooted in the neoconservative mindset (especially when it's accusing the exploratory Victorian era of holding things up).

Not drawing any conclusions about effectiveness, drugs are never a simple issue.
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Old 20-Feb-2018, 19:53   #303
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Private Eye with the inside scoops again.

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Old 21-Feb-2018, 10:19   #304
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That spy story is perfect dirty politics, there is just no get out

I didn't meet him - i'm a liar
I met him but didn't know - i'm an idiot
I met him and I knew - I'm a traitor

for the record I think its a mixture of the last two but mostly the middle one. For all the "muh Russia" today, the Soviets definitively sounded out Labour politicians back then. I bet he had a MI5 file back then (they've admitted to the NI one)
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 10:22   #305
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How does unknowingly meeting a spy make you an idiot? Surely that's the entire point of being a spy?
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 10:36   #306
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Because all eastern European diplomats (and our own to be fair) were spies and you'd need to be a complete muppet not to know that in the 80s as an MP. It just adds to his history of meeting groups he should be leaving well alone as a meaningless back bencher
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 10:40   #307
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Or alternatively all politicians should assume that 50% of state staff they meet are linked to intelligence, generally act accordingly and on that basis this means not a fuck. Corbyn has an obvious out, slate the source as a dirty rag. It's not a hard sell.
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 10:42   #308
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I’m not sure there’s a whole lot to this story, taking money from PressTV is much worse.
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 10:46   #309
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I'd agree, but I think this plays worse to his weakest base i.e. Labour nationalists
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 11:33   #310
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I HEREBY WARN YOU: CHANGE IS COMING.

Oh wait we're not actually in government.
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 11:37   #311
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On Radio 4 I heard the defence from a labour bod that all this muck is being slung because Labour is trying to get Leveson part 2: electric boogaloo off the ground by tacking on amendments to the Data Protection Bill in the Lords.

This coincides with the third reading in the Lords (after a government defeat on the issue on Jan 10th that no one noticed).

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a8152491.html
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 11:56   #313
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It is so obviously a complete crock of shit I’m surprised anyone believes it. It’s not dirty politics, it’s just pure libel/slander.
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 11:58   #314
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He signed a list of documents in the UK which said Corbyn was an intelligence contact, not an agent.”
Even Trump would struggle to spin that statement
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 12:17   #315
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What about the bit where the Czechoslovakian spy also claims to have been responsible for the Live Aid concert? That surely spins a bit.
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 13:49   #316
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sure but that nougat of info is more hidden and even so leaves the question of "why is Corbyn named". I mean it could be that there are files on everyone in the party, but I suspect Corbyn alongside fellow "internationalists" are exceptions.
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 14:07   #317
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I'm sure I can find some white papers, and that you could. but given that you obviously know how much effort it takes to licence product even elsewhere than the UK can it really be in any doubt that research has been conducted a little way beyond "stoned=better". I mean, even the woman representing the health sec mentioned more than four current ongoing projects in the UK alone and they're just ones that have confirmed it's off the market still. There's no complaint about process for mass sale, but exemptions/compassionate use clearly deserves discussion that isn't rooted in the neoconservative mindset (especially when it's accusing the exploratory Victorian era of holding things up).

Not drawing any conclusions about effectiveness, drugs are never a simple issue.
We could both find some white papers to back up our claims, and neither of us have. That's fine, we can discuss the issue in other ways. Lung provided some links, but following them I couldn't easily access information about the issue at hand, as it was behind a paywall. Since lung knew of the link already and thought it was worth posting, if he can provide details of what the article says I'd be interested to find out.

I don't know the precise process of how drugs are licenced in the Netherlands, UK or elsewhere, and I didn't meant to give that impression. I'm making an assertion that I think the Netherlands have a reasonable certification process given that they are an advanced western country about which I have not heard any major negative stories regarding their health system, and that they are in the EU which probably has quite a lot of common best practice rules covering the pharmaceutical industry.

From this, I'm surprised that the quote from the Home Office given in the article makes no mention of fact the drugs in question have been used with this patient before, and are licenced in another country. To me these should be important factors in making such a decision for Alfie, and the fact that the government states it won't consider any exemptions for any drug on the Schedule 1 is bad government policy, having a material impact on Alfies quality of life.
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 14:18   #318
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The spy story seems a bit bonkers, but its one of those where if you can get just enough credibility that the papers + news TV will run it, then you don't need any more. Fortunately for Labour it appears there is more important news going on.

Was there always a plan for a second phase of the leveson inquiry, or is that something dreamt up recently?

Also, can we do a sweepstake on what new gun restrictions actually get passed in the US?
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 14:35   #319
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Was there always a plan for a second phase of the leveson inquiry, or is that something dreamt up recently?
The Conservatives promised to shelve it in their Manifesto.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...rupt-dealings/

There was some consternation about this at the time.
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 14:40   #320
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The gun sweepstake is pretty easy - none

(a longer answer that the US would really need to create restrictions across all firearms over a generation to have any measurable effect, which it won't do politically. Restricting "assault weapons" is pointless, not even sure they would reduce sprees like this. Also ironically I suspect if AR-15s were full auto capable, the average nutter would do less damage)
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 14:47   #321
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I can see the bump stock ban going through because:

a) it's an easy political win.
b) it doesn't actually solve anything (you can make a bump stock yourself).
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 14:59   #322
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Restricting "assault weapons" is pointless, not even sure they would reduce sprees like this
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 15:05   #323
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Leady's got a point there.. Assault rifles might be the mainstay of mass killings, but looking at the larger picture:



It's the whole gun ownership obsession that's the problem, not assault rifles.
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 15:05   #324
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So we shouldn't enforce seatbelts because they don't stop car accidents?
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 15:06   #325
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Also, what are we talking about if not mitigating mass killings? What does that graph look like if you remove all single victim gun killings?
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 15:07   #326
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Is the end of your argument that everyone dies in the end so we shouldn't stop anything ? I'm confused. (to your 1st point)

2nd point, you probably have a point there.. but a quick google says mass shootings are a drop in the ocean.
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 15:15   #327
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I think long rifles are used in mass spree shootings for (and I can't think of a better term) the cool factor. A couple of glocks and a few clips would achieve the same ends if not be worse in close quarters.
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 15:17   #328
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From the same article as the previous graph - http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41488081 :



http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41488081

So do you want to stop people being killed by guns or being on the news because more than 4 were killed by the same person ? Surely the needless loss of innocent human life is the only value worth tracking ?
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 15:23   #329
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To be fair, they are different categories and have different impacts on society.

General gun crime and suicide have close to no effect on the typical American (suicide + personal murders + gang activity)

Sprees like this are like terrorism and have a disproportional social impact, particularly to the folks that generally avoid the above.

edit: The UK gun laws were specific to avoiding sprees, the general rate of gun crime is down marginally from its original low base and the murder rate is down generally due to standard trends regardless.

2nd edit: the definition of 4 or more people in a mass shooting doesn't work either, 90% of those are gang hits

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Old 21-Feb-2018, 15:34   #330
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If we're just managing headlines then I'd agree with Nersh that assault rifles should be banned. Surely handguns are far harder to aim and if it's close quarters there's more chance of a have a go hero stopping the attacker.
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