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Old 21-Feb-2018, 15:38   #331
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The loss of any life is obviously worth tracking but there's a clear gradient here. To elaborate on my position vis a vis the US;

1) Right to own arms is constitutional, no argument at the base of it.
2) Regulation around purchasing and ownership is horrifically lax at best, purposefully negligent at worst.
3) There is more than one type of gun. I have no issue with the ownership of a modestly chambered, mid-capacity handgun or shotgun for the purpose of home defence. If I could own one for such a purpose, I would. Similarly, I have no issue with the ownership of high powered bolt action rifles for the purpose of hunting, assuming that the owner has that demonstrative need and involvement in the pasttime (think UKARA for a relevant model). There is no value to a semi-automatic weapon around hunting. There will be nothing moving slow enough to shoot within a mile for an hour after your first shot.
4) I see absolutely no reason why any member of the public should be allowed to own a semi-automatic weapon both immense in capacity and powerfully chambered to the extend that it will penetrate multiple targets or structure. There simply is no justification I can arrive at. Defence against other assault rifles? Firstly, LOL. Secondly, noone will have any. No problem.
5) To elaborate on assault weapons (fuck your quote marks leady), they are machines designed for the specific purpose of killing other armed human beings as swiftly and efficently as possible. The argument that lives (how many do I need to justify?) won't be saved by the next school shooter turning up with a seven round capacity 9mm handgun instead of a thirty round capacity .223 chambered semi-automatic gas operated rifle would likely be utterly and darkly comical to anyone with the slightest grasp on the energy difference and impact effects between those two examples.

Of course no death would be great. But don't accuse me of the idiocy of seeking it. There is granularity here. It starts and ends with military grade weapons being sold to depressed nineteen year olds who'd have to wait three days for a less lethal handgun. What part of that shit makes sense to anyone?
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 15:38   #332
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I think long rifles are used in mass spree shootings for (and I can't think of a better term) the cool factor. A couple of glocks and a few clips would achieve the same ends if not be worse in close quarters.
You clearly know absolutely nothing about guns. A Glock (and the same is true for most pistols) are accurate to about 25 metres, past that it becomes a bit of a lottery. They fire a low velocity round designed to incapacitate, rather than kill. Most pistols hold between 10-17 rounds per clip and require carefully placed shots.

Assault rifles, and let’s use the AR15 here as it is the most commonly used rifle in America, are accurate to about 300-400m, fire high velocity rounds that are designed for killing. They fire much faster, have much less recoil than a handgun as it is controlled through the stock and are a far more deadly weapon.

Why in the hell did the Vegas shooter have so many rifles instead of pistols? Because they’re more effective.
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 15:47   #333
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To make that point in yet more clear terms, if you take twenty steps back and shoot ten people in the torso with a 9mm handgun vs shooting 10 people with an AR15 of some kind you will unquestionably end up with a radically different survival rate. Of course anyone can turn up to a public place and pump bullets into people with any semi-automatic weapon. However the mortality rate is absolutely something that can be improved by limiting the equipment they turn up with.
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 15:47   #334
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All handguns exist purely to kill people, just with handy concealment and carry abilities
I think we would agree that the absence of rifles wouldn't reduce the total number of attempts?
Ergo we are discussing efficacy on unarmoured targets at point blank range, not sure high energy rounds are better here

Basically to achieve anything particularly useful you have to lose everything but shotguns and single shot rifles. Hence the UK, Oz, Japan laws etc.
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 15:49   #335
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Nope. You've completely missed the point. I'm not really sure you even read anyone elses posts in full tbh.
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 15:51   #336
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That’s fairly standard for a right wing sheep.
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 15:52   #337
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Why in the hell did the Vegas shooter have so many rifles instead of pistols? Because they’re more effective.
Because he was targeting from 300m away from an elevated position I suspect, that event is exceptional even amongst the exceptional. I don't think mass shooters are typically hitting anything over 25m away.
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 15:54   #338
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Because he was targeting from 300m away from an elevated position I suspect, that event is exceptional even amongst the exceptional. I don't think mass shooters are typically hitting anything over 25m away.
Also he had modified them himself for full auto, drastically reducing their reliability. Having one jam or break and just being able to pick up another one greatly increased his sustained fire rate.
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 15:55   #339
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Right. And if he couldn't get rifles the pistol fire would have just about made it to the road between him and the concert doing a speed of about 50mph. So what was the point again?
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 15:57   #340
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Right. And if he couldn't get rifles the pistol fire would have just about made it to the road between him and the concert doing a speed of about 50mph. So what was the point again?
Probably he would of just got illegal assault rifles off the black market. That's not exactly difficult in America either.
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 15:58   #341
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The willingness of people just to give up the fight because it feels like too much effort in theory is quite something.
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 15:59   #342
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Nope. You've completely missed the point. I'm not really sure you even read anyone elses posts in full tbh.
You're claiming that maybe the waiting period on a handgun would stop these people, I don't
You're claiming that an AR-15 results in more causalities in these events, I think that's highly debatable for the majority of incidents (I'll grant that say the Vegas and say Hungerford are different, but how could you ever know)

In any event banning AR-15s alone would have close to zero effect on the overwhelming majority of gun crime in the US. Ban all guns and take the next 40 years to sort out the existing 300m and you are going to achieve something.
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 16:02   #343
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The willingness of people just to give up the fight because it feels like too much effort in theory is quite something.
The corollary being that one fervent moron ruins it for everyone.
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 16:02   #344
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I don't think mass shooters are typically hitting anything over 25m away.
No but they are able to put down 10 times the amount of rounds, that are much more accurate and do much more damage.
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 16:02   #345
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The corollary being that one fervent moron ruins it for everyone.
One a week.
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 16:17   #346
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The willingness of people just to give up the fight because it feels like too much effort in theory is quite something.
They managed a hell of a lot of effort after someone failed to detonate a shoe bomb.
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 17:23   #347
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You're claiming that maybe the waiting period on a handgun would stop these people, I don't
You're claiming that an AR-15 results in more causalities in these events, I think that's highly debatable for the majority of incidents (I'll grant that say the Vegas and say Hungerford are different, but how could you ever know
I'm not claiming anything of the sort, you can't read.

Secondly, of course I know. I'm standing on the shoulders of giants but it's a matter of physics and it's by bloody design that rifles impart more energy, not my opinion. What waffle.
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 17:24   #348
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Probably he would of just got illegal assault rifles off the black market. That's not exactly difficult in America either.
It's seems easy to argue that it's a damn sight more difficult to find black market stock five years after the stores stop selling them over the counter.
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 17:57   #349
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Probably he would of just got illegal assault rifles off the black market. That's not exactly difficult in America either.
I bet you it fucking is. Go on, explain to me exactly how you, as an average Joe, would get up one morning and find this elusive "black market", then proceed to buy an assault rifle from it. In fact, fuck the assault rifle even. Explain how you'd buy a packet of fruit gums, because I doubt 1 in 100,000 could even find this "black market" that people bandy around.
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 17:59   #350
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And it's fucking "have" or "'ve", not "of".
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 18:06   #351
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I bet you it fucking is. Go on, explain to me exactly how you, as an average Joe, would get up one morning and find this elusive "black market", then proceed to buy an assault rifle from it. In fact, fuck the assault rifle even. Explain how you'd buy a packet of fruit gums, because I doubt 1 in 100,000 could even find this "black market" that people bandy around.
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 18:09   #352
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I'm not claiming anything of the sort, you can't read.
fair enough - I clearly still don't know your position then

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Secondly, of course I know. I'm standing on the shoulders of giants but it's a matter of physics and it's by bloody design that rifles impart more energy, not my opinion. What waffle.
More energy is not more deadly though, particularly at point blank ranges given typical rifle ammo.
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 18:45   #353
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That's a website, not a "black market".
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 19:25   #354
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That's a website, not a "black market".
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A black market, underground economy, or shadow economy is a clandestine market or transaction that has some aspect of illegality or is characterized by some form of noncompliant behavior with an institutional set of rules.
Second hand and private sales are still supposed to follow the rules (e.g. all 'pre-ban' shit on sale shouldn't be). However due to economic reasons the ATF is unable to police this effectively. Armslist can handwave this away just like Craiglist does too which makes it twice as shitty.
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 20:07   #355
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Mildly off topic , but I'm pretty sure when people - ok , me at any rate - hear the term black market it brings to mind a shady guy in an alley selling weapons with their serials filed off as opposed to a website that may or may not be dodgy.

But on the other thing , it's surely harder to kill a shit load of people with a pistol than it is an assault rifle.
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 20:12   #356
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Well apparently not.
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 20:16   #357
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I had a quick google for some research on survival rates of handguns vs semi-automatic rifles in mass shooting settings, couldn't find evidence either way. This article states that they are the most common type used (7 of the last . I'm in the camp that they cause worse injuries and more deaths, based my view that the accurate range is increased, and a higher rate of fire can be maintained. The higher muzzle energy will also cause worse injuries for a given range (which is why the UK firearms definition is based on muzzle energy).

Banning semi-automatic rifles, and police efforts to remove existing ones from circulation, would have a significant effect, I think within 5 years. Will it reduce the chance of a mass killing the next day? No. But once they aren't produced in quantity, transported about, stored in houses, cars etc they will be harder to find. Yes some people will still keep a cache of them buried in the back garden for the apocalypse, but that won't be anywhere near the scale they are now.

Will it have a large effect of the number of people who die from firearms? No. But the large proportion of those deaths are suicides, which is a qualitatively different event than a mass killing. If a law change could just prevent the people who die in mass shootings, I think that would be worth it. I think at the moment people should be framing the debate in terms of preventing the harm caused by mass killings, not overall harm through gun use.

Edit: 2nd Amendment, why is there not much discussion on the first half of the sentence "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state". This in the modern day would imply at least being a member of a gun club. Although conversely perhaps it also implies civilians should be allowed to keep guns that would mean they could go up against the federal army if it came to that.
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 21:04   #358
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Ultimately the lobbying power of the NRA stops any serious reform.

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Old 21-Feb-2018, 21:16   #359
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Edit: 2nd Amendment, why is there not much discussion on the first half of the sentence "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state". This in the modern day would imply at least being a member of a gun club. Although conversely perhaps it also implies civilians should be allowed to keep guns that would mean they could go up against the federal army if it came to that.
That one is pretty straight forward to answer without huge arguments I think, rationale is not law.

The 2nd amendments law is clearish by legal standards, its rationale is mostly bollocks (and I only say mostly because I personally suspect having a crap load of guns everywhere has had a chilling effect on its politics)
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Old 21-Feb-2018, 21:36   #360
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Not sure that holds true of the NRA in the way that it did 10 years ago.
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