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Old 26-Oct-2015, 20:15   #1
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Tax Credits Regulations 2015

Vote from the House of Lords now imminent.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-34636013
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Old 26-Oct-2015, 20:20   #2
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My earlier post on this sums up my thoughts: http://www.trickery.net/vb/showpost....postcount=2573

Nonetheless an interesting constitutional kerfuffle.
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Old 28-Oct-2015, 15:46   #3
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David Cameron managed to make himself look a bit (more) of a twat by refusing to answer Jeremy Corbyns Tax Credits question at PMQs today. Jeremy only asked him six times..

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a6711901.html
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...ople-worse-off
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Old 28-Oct-2015, 15:52   #4
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Yeah, this was much better from Corbyn now he's abandoned PMQs as a radio phone-in.
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Old 29-Oct-2015, 11:02   #5
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This isn't quite it's own thread but credit where credit's due, between blind UCAS submissions and jobseeker advice in food banks that's two whole ideas in a week that don't make me want to go full Fawkes. Grats on the miniscule progress towards giving a shit about anyone tory fellas!
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Old 29-Oct-2015, 13:53   #6
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I don't want to come across as a condescending Tory twat, but I think food banks might also be a good place for people to learn budgeting skills.
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Old 30-Oct-2015, 09:42   #7
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So, I'll play devil's advocate here... What are the views on the fact these credits exist in the first place.
Maybe if they weren't, people might think twice about having children? As in the fact that more consideration might be given to whether a couple can indeed afford to bring up a child/children based on their income(s) alone.
I guess same could be said for Child Benefits too... make it a less appealing prospect to spit out child after child.
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Old 30-Oct-2015, 10:41   #8
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I don't think many people would deny that there are problems with the benefits system. What most don't appreciate is taking from those with least, although after the Tory's got elected despite taking from disabled people I'm not as sure on that point.

In theory the government has put up the minimum wage to a liveable standard and has taken away tax credits which should result in those people who are at the lowest rung of the ladder to be able to afford to pay their way without government assistance (which is really a benefit to businesses as it allows them to keep wages low, rather than to those individuals who receive tax credits).

The problem is that employment law and benefits are a lot more messy than just the minimum wage / tax credit issue, and the Tory government have chosen to take from those who can (at least currently) least afford it with no guarantees that it will not leave people substantially poorer than they were... I mean, it could work. The tax credits thing is far from the worst thing the Tories have done, there is some logic to it. But it wasn't politically astute to lie about it directly as Cameron did. It also takes from quite a lot of people who would have voted for them - middle England as it were.
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Old 30-Oct-2015, 12:47   #9
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Maybe if they weren't, people might think twice about having children? As in the fact that more consideration might be given to whether a couple can indeed afford to bring up a child/children based on their income(s) alone.
I guess same could be said for Child Benefits too... make it a less appealing prospect to spit out child after child.


Sorry to resort to GIF but the only thing that's going to stop idiots pumping out too many kids is God Himself confiscating their genitals.
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Old 30-Oct-2015, 12:58   #10
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Old 30-Oct-2015, 12:59   #11
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in such circumstances, let them eat cake. or rather pay for them themselves. after all, their kids won't be thanking us in paying for our retirements and their parents' overly generous welfare receipts.
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Old 30-Oct-2015, 13:09   #12
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Only the reality of that is their kids will be breaking into your house so they can have your stuff and eat because if poverty directly translated to giving a fuck then it would have already happened. These are generational problems you're trying to "solve" on a month by month basis.
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Old 30-Oct-2015, 13:13   #13
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So we'll shower the poor with welfare to keep them from robbing? Another great society
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Old 30-Oct-2015, 13:17   #14
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Frankly the government in this country is big, and far too big. People talk about what the government is doing about x, why the government isn't funding y, why the government isn't helping z. The role of government should be to create a stable, inclusive and knowledgeable society for people to make their own way, not hand hold them from cradle to grave.

If you treat sections of the population like children throughout their lives, expect them never to grow up.
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Old 30-Oct-2015, 13:18   #15
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Don't be a simpleton. Reducing welfare dependence is an utterly valid goal in the long term, but is nigh unworkable in the short term without immediate detriment to us all. If you want people sponging less they need to be educated better, enjoy greater social and geographical mobility and have access to more jobs. Just telling the poor fuckers to starve to death serves only to entertain you for five seconds on a forum and achieves nothing else.
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Old 30-Oct-2015, 13:21   #16
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They also need an incentive. And they won't starve.

I, for one, struggle to defend Tory policy in the context of maintaining pensions triple lock, non-means tested pensioner benefits and a practical cut in inheritance tax, but the concept of removing these benefits remains absolutely sound.
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Old 30-Oct-2015, 13:23   #17
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Of course they need incentive. But again, the damage to the psychology of our underclass has already been done. Sub-par education that never gave a shit. Unaffordable urban housing. Commercial consolidation driving wages into the floor for fifty years. Not disagreeing that lowering welfare will provide incentive for people to want more money, but I don't really see a conversion pathway that suddently puts all these people on wage.
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Old 30-Oct-2015, 13:25   #18
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And if you weren't talking about telling people to starve then you've badly misunderstood the "let them eat cake" quote.
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Old 30-Oct-2015, 13:36   #19
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For every child in the sub-par school there's one who performs, or out performs, academically. The problem isn't sub-par education - there's plenty of teachers out there who will tell you that the standards of comprehensives are generally pretty high vis-a-vis other countries' systems - but rather in certain families there's a lack of awareness, responsibility and/or (in the worst case) care for their children's education, and schools and its teachers cannot be wholly responsible for their pupils' education. I struggle to see how we can fix that attitude directly - we cannot force them to view their child's education as important for their future - but what we can do is to show them (indirectly by removing unnecessary welfare) that work, not welfare, is the way out of poverty.

Of course it's a long term shift, but unless you start the pain somewhere you just continue to perpetuate inter-generational welfare dependency.
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Old 30-Oct-2015, 13:38   #20
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Anyway listen to us: we're in danger of descending into a university debating class
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Old 30-Oct-2015, 13:50   #21
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Well it's that or write documentation so devil/deep blue sea.

Education - don't you see parental disinterest as a symptom of their own failure to be engaged? You've either got to be saying that second/third disengagement is a modern phenomenon or you've got to be saying that the issue of offering incentive to work is a modern one? If the latter always existed but the welfare state is only now a burden then......what.

Beyond all this....it's my position that the very best incentive to work is offering a tenable living wage as an alternative to the bennies. Employers have been allowed to punish wages downhill for decades and unlike the psychology of individuals, that's a trend that any government can absolutely reverse.
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Old 30-Oct-2015, 15:15   #22
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Like this idea. Increasing the minimum wage to a much greater amount.
http://www.politico.com/magazine/sto...ats-108014?o=0
http://www.bloombergview.com/article...5-minimum-wage

So at say, 12/hr minimum wage, boost the economy and reduce the need adding tax credits etc.
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Old 30-Oct-2015, 15:48   #23
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Not going to pretend that any one example is evidence of rightness, or a solution by example. But the story at Gravity remains good reading a year on.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/...0_minimum.html
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Old 30-Oct-2015, 17:10   #24
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The most sensible suggestion I have come across thus far has been to bin all these specific tax relief and benefits and just adjust peoples income tax, to the point where if they have no income they get put on a negative income tax rate.

http://www.adamsmith.org/news/press-...ys-new-report/
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Old 30-Oct-2015, 17:34   #25
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Still requires government administration though, the cost of which represents much of the complaint both here and in the US as per Hanauer's pieces and the adjustment of which will inevitably get bogged down by the sort of partisan shitflinging that prompted this thread.
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