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Old 31-Mar-2017, 15:29   #1
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Legal contract crap

Heh,

Just came across this:

"These Terms and Conditions of Business are between (the “Company”) and the person, firm, company or other such body (the “Client”) and are deemed to be accepted by the Client by virtue of the receipt of information sufficient to identify an Applicant..."

They claim just by receiving the info you are bound by their contract.

Given this info is emailed, along with the T&C's that was lifted from - how enforceable is that under law (which I seriously doubt it is). In otherwords, you can't see that you are now bound by their contract until they actually email you in the first place - and according to this, you probably don't even need to have actually opened the email.


Thoughts please.
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Old 31-Mar-2017, 15:39   #2
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Not a lawyer, the closest parallel I would draw is EULAs that users were deemed to agree to when they opened the box that contained it. Not sure it ever went to court but people seemed to think they would be invalid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrink_wrap_contract discusses some UK stuff

Obviously, if this matters to you get a lawyer, but I would think if you respond saying (non-specifically so they can't identify that you received their email) that you expressly do not consent to any business contract without such a contract being transmitted in writing and your express consent received by them, but would be the best way to cover yourself.
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Old 31-Mar-2017, 16:16   #3
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Yeah but at least they could see the box and decide if they wanted to open it.

This thing they would argue comes into effect the moment you became aware of the boxes existence, regardless of if you'd looked at it, opened it or even agree to it - the face you've received it is enough.

Its so bloody mental I can't see how on earth they could hold this up in a court. There are so many loopholes - are you classed as having "received" it if when emailed no bounce back occurrs? - what if your AV solution kills it dead on the spot - you haven't received anything then.

Does simply opening the email and a RR being sent back consitute acknowlegement of it - possibly, but that doesn't mean you agree to anything within it.

How can anyone possibly do business on the basis that any information they email to anyone will bind that person and them to a contract - and if they don't agree to the contract, how does the sending company enforce it? - seems so utterly stupid I'm almost speechless.
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Old 31-Mar-2017, 16:58   #4
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Beggin For Help again?
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Old 31-Mar-2017, 18:05   #5
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You're right (you possibly could have quoted more of the text, Not sure who "Applicant" is between "Company" and "Client"). It also doesn't give any context for "receipt of information sufficient to identify the applicant", or what the contract is actually regarding.

In general, I don't think you can state, "I identified this person, thus they are bound by some contract I dreamt up that they havent signed", as you point out, this is even more extreme than the shrink-wrap contract scenario.

An interesting exception that appears in popular fiction (where I know it from) is the subpeona, where merely giving the documents to someone is enough to force them into legal proceedings. Exactly what that is based on legally I don't know.

If this is someone quoting for work, or you are quoting for work, then I think it's probably rubbish. Why are you reading T&Cs in detail? Are you looking as to whether you want to enter a legal dispute with them, or have they already started one?
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Old 31-Mar-2017, 20:45   #6
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Surely there is some reasonable doubt as to whether its actually been received if using e-mail - hence why a number of solicitors still use fax.
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Old 31-Mar-2017, 20:58   #7
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A contract needs offer and acceptance to be legally binding, so it's completely non enforceable.
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Old 31-Mar-2017, 21:00   #8
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^ Randell is correct.
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Old 01-Apr-2017, 21:44   #9
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its just a stupid fucking recruitment place that for some reason seems to be able/allowed/people just go along with it, to bind companies to their contracts so effectively forcing them to agree to pay consultancy fees for taking on a new person. So, for example, they email you the details of someones CV (along with these TC's). You having (it seems) simply received the information are now bound by their TC's and as such if you then hire the person (whether through this agency or via any other means) they argue you are contractually bound to pay them a percentage as agreed. Even if it was 2 years later ! - i mean wtf!

I'm not sure if our place has actually signed some form of documentation upfront as perhaps they used the same agency in the past (I can find out though but not sure if i cba).

Just happened to come across the whole thing for an unrelated reason and couldn't believe what I was reading.
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Old 01-Apr-2017, 23:32   #10
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as I said it's not enforceable unless your firm actively accepted the contract terms.
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Old 03-Apr-2017, 11:40   #11
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I'd be surprised if someone hasn't signed up to the general terms of the recruitment agency at some point. I mean it almost sounds that a company that gets paid for recruitment, doesn't want people to use their service without paying for it (putting aside everyones deep dislike of recruitment companies)
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Old 03-Apr-2017, 12:01   #12
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Ah the word of experience from someone working middle management in a massive organisation talking about what recruiters try to do to the smaller businesses in the country. There are some proper cowboys out there in the recruitment world.

1/ Get company contact off of mailer list they buy for peanuts
2/ Mail recruitment contract to company contact stating that they have accepted Ts & Cs including payment for any recruited candidate whose CV the recruiters have on file
3/ Company recruits someone that the recruiters have on file via a different channel
4/ Recruiters invoice despite them never using your service
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Old 03-Apr-2017, 12:34   #13
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As I said, I'm not too sure if we actually signed anything wth them so any contracts they say we've agreed to is a pile of.

Might suggest we change our email sigs to include something like we haven't agreed shit unless it's in writing blah blah.
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Old 03-Apr-2017, 14:22   #14
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As a recruiter myself, that contract term is complete tosh. Utterly non-enforceable and invalid. Tell the agency/consultancy to reword it or remove it completely and if they refuse, tell them to gtfo.

As someone has said for a contract to be agreed it must be agreed to by both parties, so either signed at the bottom or with an email confirming acceptance of the terms. You can send me the contract of you like and I'll reword it for you.
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Old 03-Apr-2017, 14:23   #15
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Ah the word of experience from someone working middle management in a massive organisation talking about what recruiters try to do to the smaller businesses in the country. There are some proper cowboys out there in the recruitment world.

1/ Get company contact off of mailer list they buy for peanuts
2/ Mail recruitment contract to company contact stating that they have accepted Ts & Cs including payment for any recruited candidate whose CV the recruiters have on file
3/ Company recruits someone that the recruiters have on file via a different channel
4/ Recruiters invoice despite them never using your service
It is these practices that give a lot of us a bad name. Laughable really.
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Old 03-Apr-2017, 14:35   #16
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It's not just that Goose. All if you knowing fuck all about any professions is probably the key reason.
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Old 03-Apr-2017, 14:41   #17
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It's not just that Goose. All if you knowing fuck all about any professions is probably the key reason.
Hah, not me! I know the stuff I recruit for inside out and make the effort to meet people in the industry. Given that I've worked for the same company doing the same market for 7 years is to be expected really.

Sadly, a lot of the big agencies such a Michael Page, Huxley, Spring Tech, G2 among others all have a hire and fire model - get people in and do business at any cost regardless of reputation and if you aren't cool with that then fuck off. Estate Agents are the same (Foxtons, anyone?)
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Old 03-Apr-2017, 15:04   #18
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Yeah I feel a bit sorry for the new "Associates" at those places. They seem to be handed a list of people to cold call and its painfully obvious within a couple of minutes they haven't any clue about the industry, contacts or the opportunity.
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Old 03-Apr-2017, 15:09   #19
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Yep, and those same associates are then told to sell themselves as specialists on Linkedin.
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Old 18-Apr-2017, 10:37   #20
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I've been AFK for a bit.

The Wife (Employment lawyer)'s response: Rofl. Tell them to go fuck themselves.
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Old 20-Apr-2017, 12:05   #21
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died?
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Old 20-Apr-2017, 12:28   #22
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Hey qui, how is everything?
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Old 20-Apr-2017, 12:55   #23
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Good mate thanks, just been busy with RL and shit. :/
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Old 20-Apr-2017, 13:36   #24
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Yeah Rl keeps getting in the way of my fun as well.
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Old 20-Apr-2017, 15:37   #25
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