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Old 31-Mar-2018, 23:42   #151
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Originally Posted by Inertiaman View Post
Aye...

but....

Tesla also have said they have evidence to show that the intersection structure was fitted with reduced protection (video footage from many other Tesla's that travelled the same route) so whilst the crash may (or would it?...) have still happened, there is a higher chance the impact damage would have been less as there would have been more protection on the structure to crumple before the car took damage in the first place.

But still - this is early days for driverless shit - there's always a pain (or concrete) barrier for people to go through before stuff is sorted out.
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Old 01-Apr-2018, 00:04   #152
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so tesla are recording every trip?

wrap those cars in tinfoil people
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Old 01-Apr-2018, 00:38   #153
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Aye...

but....

Tesla also have said they have evidence to show that the intersection structure was fitted with reduced protection (video footage from many other Tesla's that travelled the same route) so whilst the crash may (or would it?...) have still happened, there is a higher chance the impact damage would have been less as there would have been more protection on the structure to crumple before the car took damage in the first place.

But still - this is early days for driverless shit - there's always a pain (or concrete) barrier for people to go through before stuff is sorted out.
Sure, but in development parlance, why the fuck is this shoddy shit allowed into production?
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Old 01-Apr-2018, 05:25   #154
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https://sf.curbed.com/2018/3/28/1717...-permit-expire

Thatís the end of that for a while.
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Old 01-Apr-2018, 06:58   #155
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https://sf.curbed.com/2018/3/28/1717...-permit-expire

Thatís the end of that for a while.
I like how uncompromising obi alfred is, while prolly working in a sawmill or something:

"Obi Alfred
What a bunch of cowards. One death and just pack your bags. Pathetic. And I canít belive they were so incompetent to have a self driving car kill someone in the first place!"
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Old 02-Apr-2018, 13:06   #156
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i drove a Tesla S from London to Harrogate last week and back in one day. I used autopilot a lot of the way. It performed remarkably well. I did have a lot of trust in it, but I also knew when not to use it. For example where there is construction work and they make smaller lanes or temporary lanes. Tbh, the best part for me though was the distance control. Just accelerating and stopping and going again when traffic moves. When a car pulled infront of me really badly, adjusted and saw it very quickly. The steering is just an added bonus.
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Old 03-Apr-2018, 10:05   #157
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Sure, but in development parlance, why the fuck is this shoddy shit allowed into production?
If I drive a £1M Ferrari at a concrete wall and it breaks apart, is that shoddy workmanship? - what if the wall was supposed to have impact protection to reduce damage to vehicles (and it was missing / been reduced). Is it still shit production/design by Ferrari that their car came to pieces?

You drive any vehicle at something fast enough and it will break - I think Tesla are saying the fact the protection of the barrier had been reduced would have been a contributing factor to the damage the vehicle sustained. They are showing they have proven evidence that their cars are able to successfully navigate that stretch of road and have done so a huge number of times before.

When it comes to road safety unfortunately, it often takes people to loose their lives or be seriously hurt before changes occur to counter something that wasn't foreseen.
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Old 03-Apr-2018, 10:13   #158
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Someone used autopilot in the same location - you can see why the car read the road incorrectly given the lane markings. Grim.

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Old 03-Apr-2018, 10:27   #159
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ahh - well there's the answer then... shit road markings, reduced impact protection on the divide and Tesla's car unable to see the danger because it read the (shit) road markings as being something they weren't - so who's fault is it...?

Maybe if the car had radar to scan the road ahead (doesn't it have this anyway? - and if so, why didn't it see the divide?).

Maybe if the divide's all had some kind of dirt cheap and easy to maintain reflective material for self driving cars to pick up and see well in advance...

Maybe if the road's were maintained properly so the lane markings could be easily identified...

Thats a lot of maybe's
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Old 03-Apr-2018, 10:50   #160
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Old 03-Apr-2018, 11:09   #161
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I personally don't think any of this tech is advanced or safe enough to put into real world use.
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Old 03-Apr-2018, 11:52   #162
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I kind of agree. Surely we need a few years with this design of car unmanned, utilising the tech to prove it a little more:

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Old 03-Apr-2018, 12:07   #163
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If I drive a £1M Ferrari at a concrete wall and it breaks apart, is that shoddy workmanship? - what if the wall was supposed to have impact protection to reduce damage to vehicles (and it was missing / been reduced). Is it still shit production/design by Ferrari that their car came to pieces?

You drive any vehicle at something fast enough and it will break - I think Tesla are saying the fact the protection of the barrier had been reduced would have been a contributing factor to the damage the vehicle sustained. They are showing they have proven evidence that their cars are able to successfully navigate that stretch of road and have done so a huge number of times before.

When it comes to road safety unfortunately, it often takes people to loose their lives or be seriously hurt before changes occur to counter something that wasn't foreseen.
Sorry, no. If I take my hands of my wheel when AAC or TJA are turned on all sorts of lights and buzzers literally tell me to put my hands back on the wheel. The same sensors and alarms kick in for tiredness as well. I'm not talking about the impact. Tesla are literally alpha testing hands off autopilot on roads. The complaint has nothing to do with the impact. They could compel people to remain attentive whilst using the system. They don't.
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Old 03-Apr-2018, 12:10   #164
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And eeeeeven if you ignore that, why can't the car "see" a fecking massive lump of concrete on radar?
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Old 03-Apr-2018, 14:39   #165
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they are known as driving aids. At no point do they say to remove your hands from the wheel. quite the opposite, it tells you to keep hands on the wheel when using autopilot. not sure if people here have driven one or not.

im pretty sure for safety, the Tesla came out as one of the safest crashed test cars?!? The driver did not use the autopilot correctly and would have been at fault.
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Old 03-Apr-2018, 14:42   #166
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And eeeeeven if you ignore that, why can't the car "see" a fecking massive lump of concrete on radar?
the guy in this instance braked and took control so if I remember correctly he is in full control of the car then. (talking about the reenactment video).
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Old 03-Apr-2018, 15:35   #167
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Yeah thanks for explaining that devs. You can drive with your hands off the wheel as much as you like as far as I'm concerned. The point remains though if a driver has his hands off the wheel then why is the car allowed to proceed? There are no alarms, there are no warnings, the car does not pull over. A VW passat audi A5 or a vauxhall insignia will. It's a problem tesla can solve in software, they're playing fast and loose and effectively trialling hands off autopilot on the roads with predictably fatal results. A disclaimer might work when you're signing up to use paypal. That text checkbox clearly doesn't cut the mustard whilst your sales staff are out blatantly demoing the handsoff nature of the system in a two ton road legal vehicle.

And crash results don't really have a bearing on that conversation. It's the crashing in the first place that seems pertinent.
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Old 03-Apr-2018, 16:08   #168
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i will go back to my statement of I dont think people here have driven a Tesla. They do have Alarms, they do have warnings and the car actually stops and I believe turns on hazards. These can be disabled.

Does your ford cortina stop when your hands are off the wheel? No. Teslas are not autonomous cars, treat them like your own car with some additional aids.
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Old 03-Apr-2018, 16:31   #169
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It stops and turns except when it doesn't. Hence the dead people that we're talking about. So I'll go back past your unrelated nonsense about cortinas to my original statement about the system not being remotely prepared for road conditions and then leap forward again to the latter statement about the system being routinely oversold.
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Old 03-Apr-2018, 16:42   #170
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Yeah I wouldn't fully trust it. It's great when it's in slow moving traffic or empty motorways or on congested motorways where there's no real ability to change lanes so you can just leave adaptive cruise control on with autopilot but I ended up using it less than I thought I would as it just obviously doesn't read the road like a human driver so you end up regularly braking and being stuck behind people all the time. Also I'm sure the regular brake lights only encourage people behind me to unnecessarily brake causing waves of traffic.

I wouldn't say it's unsafe but people do clearly put too much faith in it. I also hope you couldn't disable the ability for it to stop if the hands aren't on the wheel

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Old 03-Apr-2018, 16:56   #171
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It stops and turns except when it doesn't. Hence the dead people that we're talking about. So I'll go back past your unrelated nonsense about cortinas to my original statement about the system not being remotely prepared for road conditions and then leap forward again to the latter statement about the system being routinely oversold.
If you ignore enough of the warnings, after a certain amount of time it will indeed stop. it wont stop as soon as you decide to take your hands off the wheel for the firs time. The system isnt designed currently to drive autonomously currently. So people should be keeping their hands on the wheel, and should be keeping their eyes on the road. I would really doubt the guy driving the vehicle had attention.

The system is still in alpha/beta I believe and they give enough warnings to people about the system. If people decide to go against the warnings, is that then the fault of the manufacturer or the user?
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Old 03-Apr-2018, 17:02   #172
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Yeah I wouldn't fully trust it. It's great when it's in slow moving traffic or empty motorways or on congested motorways where there's no real ability to change lanes so you can just leave adaptive cruise control on with autopilot but I ended up using it less than I thought I would as it just obviously doesn't read the road like a human driver so you end up regularly braking and being stuck being people all the time. Also I'm sure the regular brake lights only encourage people behind me to unnecessarily brake causing waves of traffic.

I wouldn't say it's unsafe but people do clearly put too much faith in it. I also hope you couldn't disable the ability for it to stop if the hands aren't on the wheel
I dont think you can disable the ability for it to stop. notifications and alerts i think. I was wondering myself as the adaptive cruise control obvously needs to brake at times, this could cause traffic as you mention. Im guessing when most cars will have this as standard and if its being used, they wont have this issue so much and less traffic caused by this.
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Old 03-Apr-2018, 17:10   #173
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does this settle your Tesla need to implement in an update?
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Old 03-Apr-2018, 18:16   #174
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Do you own shares in Tesla or something, Devs?
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Old 04-Apr-2018, 09:02   #175
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no. just don't see how user error is being blamed on the car.
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Old 04-Apr-2018, 09:52   #176
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't AAC supposed to brake when something is in the way?
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Old 04-Apr-2018, 12:30   #177
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Code:
From the owners manual.
Automatic Emergency Braking
The forward looking camera and the radar
sensor are designed to determine the distance
from any object (vehicle, motorcycle, bicycle,
or pedestrian) traveling in front of Model S.
When a frontal collision is considered
unavoidable, Automatic Emergency Braking is
designed to automatically apply the brakes to
reduce the severity of the impact.
When Automatic Emergency Braking applies
the brakes, the instrument panel displays a
visual warning and you'll hear a chime. You
may also notice abrupt downward movement
of the brake pedal. The brake lights turn on to
alert other road users that you are slowing
down.
When Automatic Emergency Braking has
reduced the driving speed by 25 mph
(40 km/h), the brakes are released. For
example, if Automatic Emergency Braking
applies braking when driving at 56 mph
(90 km/h), it releases the brakes when the
speed has been reduced to 31 mph (50 km/h).
Automatic Emergency Braking operates only
when driving between 5 mph (8 km/h) and 85
mph (140 km/h).
Automatic Emergency Braking does not apply
the brakes, or stops applying the brakes, in
situations where you are taking action to avoid
a potential collision. For example:
ē You turn the steering wheel sharply.
ē You press the accelerator pedal.
ē You press and release the brake pedal.
ē A vehicle, motorcycle, bicycle, or
pedestrian, is no longer detected ahead.
Automatic Emergency Braking is always
enabled when you start Model S. To disable it
for your current drive, touch Controls >
Settings > Driver Assistance > Automatic
Emergency Braking > Disable.
Warning: It is strongly recommended that
you do not disable Automatic Emergency
Braking. If you disable it, Model S does
not automatically apply the brakes in
situations where a collision is considered
likely.
Warning: Automatic Emergency Braking
is designed to reduce the severity of an
impact. It is not designed to avoid a
collision.
Warning: Several factors can affect the
performance of Automatic Emergency
Braking, causing either no braking or
inappropriate or untimely braking. It is the
driverís responsibility to drive safely and
remain in control of the vehicle at all
times. Never depend on Automatic
Emergency Braking to avoid or reduce
the impact of a collision.
Warning: Automatic Emergency Braking
is designed to reduce the impact of
frontal collisions only and does not
function when Model S is in reverse.
Warning: Automatic Emergency Braking
is not a substitute for maintaining a safe
traveling distance between you and the
vehicle in front of you.
Warning: The brake pedal moves
downward abruptly during automatic
braking events. Always ensure that the
brake pedal can move freely. Do not place
material on top of the Tesla-supplied
driverís floor mat (including an additional
mat) and always ensure that the driverís
floor mat is properly secured. Failure to
do so can impede the ability of the brake
pedal to move freely.
Note: For advance notice of an Automatic
Emergency Braking event, turn on Forward
Collision Warning (see Forward Collision
Warning on page 86). When turned on, you
hear a chime and see a collision warning in the
center of the instrument panel if a collision is
considered likely. Then, if you do not take
immediate corrective action, a collision is
considered imminent and Automatic
Emergency Braking applies braking to reduce
driving speed. If enabled, Automatic
Emergency Braking applies braking when a
collision is considered inevitable, even if
Forward Collision Warning is turned off.
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Old 04-Apr-2018, 12:38   #178
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That's a yes pretending to be something cleverer than a yes then.
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Old 04-Apr-2018, 12:59   #179
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devs has a reputation beyond reputedevs has a reputation beyond reputedevs has a reputation beyond reputedevs has a reputation beyond reputedevs has a reputation beyond reputedevs has a reputation beyond reputedevs has a reputation beyond reputedevs has a reputation beyond reputedevs has a reputation beyond reputedevs has a reputation beyond reputedevs has a reputation beyond repute
clearly you have an issue reading. There are reasons why it may not.
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Old 04-Apr-2018, 13:03   #180
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I think you have an issue distinguishing between a reason and a disclaimer.
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