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Old 04-Apr-2018, 13:06   #181
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lol, you what? so ill make it simpler for you...this is no disclaimer, this actually happens:

Automatic Emergency Braking does not apply the brakes, or stops applying the brakes, in
situations where you are taking action to avoid a potential collision:

• You press the accelerator pedal.
• Automatic Emergency Braking operates only when driving between 5 mph (8 km/h) and 85mph (140 km/h).

there are many other reasons why it may not too. No disclaimer.
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Old 04-Apr-2018, 13:10   #182
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You've certainly developed a reputation for simple. But in this case I assume you're claiming that the guy whose Tesla ran full pelt into a concrete wall whilst in AAC/AP had his foot on the accelerator?
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Old 04-Apr-2018, 13:12   #183
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And in your edit, that he was travelling outside of 5mph (lol) and 85mph?
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Old 04-Apr-2018, 14:03   #184
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i added circumstances of why it may not, as you thought the post was just disclaimers, when in fact there were reasons. Yet im the one not knowing the difference . I am not assuming, im stating why it may not. Autopilot does stay engaged when you press the accelerator (report states autopilot was active), and even if it was lightly pressed, the automatic braking would not be active.
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Old 04-Apr-2018, 16:41   #185
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Right so despite the other video in this very thread where the same model of Tesla blatantly ignored the divergent marking on the very same piece of road and had to be manually stopped in front of the very same and very large concrete block it's still user error for reasons that Tesla, despite dumping information out about the crash immediately in a damage control exercise, managed to omit from their report on the matter.

Or alternatively, you're being a fucking weirdo in defence of an entirely unsafe car because god knows why.
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Old 04-Apr-2018, 21:11   #186
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I aint reading all that fuckin shit.

Some it up.

But at a guess it's "take your hands off the wheel if you want, but don't assume you'll be ok - keep watching the road"
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Old 04-Apr-2018, 21:56   #187
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Right so despite the other video in this very thread where the same model of Tesla blatantly ignored the divergent marking on the very same piece of road and had to be manually stopped in front of the very same and very large concrete block it's still user error for reasons that Tesla, despite dumping information out about the crash immediately in a damage control exercise, managed to omit from their report on the matter.

Or alternatively, you're being a fucking weirdo in defence of an entirely unsafe car because god knows why.
have you seen a detailed report? i certainly haven't.

and yes, I would say it is user error in the reenacted video, because again the driver ignored the warnings. Is it that hard? Its telling the driver to grab the wheel. If you grab the wheel and see that its going towards the concrete block (like this reenacted video driver did) it stopped because he was paying attention.

ITS NOT A FUCKING AUTONOMOUS VEHICLE YET! I'm going to guess, part of the legislation to allow for fully autonomous vehicles to be legal, will be that road markings and other aids will have to be introduced.
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Old 04-Apr-2018, 22:05   #188
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https://www.tesla.com/models/design
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Old 04-Apr-2018, 22:11   #189
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Sorry I may not have followed this but not sure that self driving capability is activated yet on any Tesla in any jurisdiction. Autopilot is different.
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Old 04-Apr-2018, 22:22   #190
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The problem is, "average" drivers are the retarded cunts you see driving along and texting, or cutting people up then ramming their brakes on at some perceived offence, or driving along at 60 in the outside lane of a motorway.

I'm no better or worse than any of you lot, but I still consider myself WAY above average, compared to the majority of cunts on the road.

If a car with autopilot is no better than that, you'd better keep the cunts away from me and my family. You certainly don't get to test the fucker when my families lives are at stake because of untested and unready technology.
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Old 04-Apr-2018, 22:23   #191
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Sorry I may not have followed this but not sure that self driving capability is activated yet on any Tesla in any jurisdiction. Autopilot is different.
Just this,

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It stops and turns except when it doesn't. Hence the dead people that we're talking about. So I'll go back past your unrelated nonsense about cortinas to my original statement about the system not being remotely prepared for road conditions and then leap forward again to the latter statement about the system being routinely oversold.
People are being upsold and are demonstrably in the drivers seat whilst not looking at the road. And even just limiting the conversation to AP, that's clearly not working either. Unless "minimum distance" means "wrapped around a concrete wall". It has to be and I suspect will be disabled. The roads are not a staging environment for this shit.

edit - echoing Niq.
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Old 05-Apr-2018, 05:37   #192
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Lmao, did you just quote some bs that is not active on any Tesla? If people are stupid to be treating their Tesla as fully autonomous from now and heads down, put that error on the user. Are you now just upset that Tesla are giving a discount to existing users if self driving does become available in a safe manner? You have a problem with their business model?

Being in the driver seat and not looking ahead is user error. What donít you understand about that?

As with all the warnings the car has and it still being in alpha/beta, even though Iím not an owner, I still figured, near exit ramps and in construction areas, where temporary lanes are drawn up, the car could behave erratically. No point did I bother relying on it fully.

Those cunt drivers that Niq talking about were on my 10 hour journey, thankfully, the car slowed down, avoided potential accidents by taking the correct measures.

I donít know how you are not coming to the same conclusion that this death was due to the user not paying attention and using the car properly.
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Old 05-Apr-2018, 07:16   #193
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Devs you're having a different conversation to me and you're having it with yourself. Worse, you're only having it because you waded into a thread without reading it just to remind everyone your mum bought a Tesla. Fuck off.
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Old 05-Apr-2018, 07:42   #194
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If a car has cup-holders, people will use them.
If a car has indicators, [most] people will use them.
If a car has a steering wheel, people will use it.
If a car has some form of autopilot/self driving technology, and which is enabled, the use of which in its intended fashion would probably lead anyone to be charged with careless driving at the very least...people will fuck around with it, despite warnings to the contrary.

Tell me. Which of the above is most likely to end badly?
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Old 05-Apr-2018, 09:43   #195
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To be fair, that logic could be applied to cruise control, adaptive or otherwise, lane control, emergency braking and other driver aids. They're a step in the right direction - if autopilot is being mass misused then perhaps it's time to limit its roll out, but I'm not sure that this is the case. In addition, given the number of incidents per mile vs the human driver statistically a car in autopilot is safer than most human controlled cars on the road - you only need to see the average distance most drivers give the car in front at high speeds on motorways to understand how accidents easily happen.
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Old 05-Apr-2018, 10:03   #196
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Devs you're having a different conversation to me and you're having it with yourself. Worse, you're only having it because you waded into a thread without reading it just to remind everyone your mum bought a Tesla. Fuck off.
Your more fake news than fake news. I donít have a Tesla, nor my mum. I can go step by step if you want of the dribble you wrote and conceded one by one.
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Old 05-Apr-2018, 10:04   #197
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By far the most important feature on any car I have is a decent adaptive cruise control. One that would fully stop and go again. Truly amazing feature.
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Old 05-Apr-2018, 10:20   #198
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If a car has indicators, [most] people will use them.
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I you ever think your job is pointless, just remember someone somewhere is installing indicators on a BMW.
So.
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Old 05-Apr-2018, 10:27   #199
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So.
Pretty much AUDI these days. 99% of the cuntery I see on my way to work in a morning is perpetrated by AUDI drivers.
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Old 05-Apr-2018, 12:14   #200
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Your more fake news than fake news. I donít have a Tesla, nor my mum. I can go step by step if you want of the dribble you wrote and conceded one by one.
Oh sure thing. Who doesn't want to see another page of an illiterate explaining why a feature called "Autopilot" isn't.
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Old 05-Apr-2018, 13:10   #201
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you've finally figured out that there is a difference between autopilot and full self driving capability? And that Tesla doesnt state it is currently the latter?

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Old 05-Apr-2018, 13:15   #202
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We've all been in the back seat of devs' mum's car, so we know it's not a Tesla.


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Old 05-Apr-2018, 13:21   #203
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You know it's the same application right devs? It's two ticks in on the store page but it's the same application? The delineation, like the range limiters between models is purely commercial and software controlled? It's just feature exposed or not to the user? Besides, I still never claimed otherwise. It's the AP that's unsafe and it's being oversold. If it isn't, why have 35,000 Tesla buyers bought Self-Drive they can't use? Why does any system not permitted for such use allow the user to disable it's safety features? If the car is capable of coming to rest, why isn't it designed to do so safely given a lack of input? These elements are all the faults in the same model that you just don't seem to comprehend. They are all issues that Tesla have decided to risk for the sake of adoption. It is not a complete product. That's an acceptable approach when you're making phone apps or whatever. My point is that it's not acceptable when you're using it to drive two ton cars around on the buyers liability.

But that's all irrelevant to the only reply really worth making. What you've done (for the second time, but I'm happy to reiterate in simple terms) is invented an argument noone is making (that it's teslas fault because there are no warnings), disagreed with it, then spent a page and a half telling me I hold a position I don't. Meanwhile there's definitely a few dead guys demonstrating my points.
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Old 05-Apr-2018, 13:50   #204
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You know it's the same application right devs? It's two ticks in on the store page but it's the same application? The delineation, like the range limiters between models is purely commercial and software controlled? It's just feature exposed or not to the user? Besides, I still never claimed otherwise. It's the AP that's unsafe and it's being oversold. If it isn't, why have 35,000 Tesla buyers bought Self-Drive they can't use? Why does any system not permitted for such use allow the user to disable it's safety features? If the car is capable of coming to rest, why isn't it designed to do so safely given a lack of input? These elements are all the faults in the same model that you just don't seem to comprehend. They are all issues that Tesla have decided to risk for the sake of adoption. It is not a complete product. That's an acceptable approach when you're making phone apps or whatever. My point is that it's not acceptable when you're using it to drive two ton cars around on the buyers liability.

But that's all irrelevant to the only reply really worth making. What you've done (for the second time, but I'm happy to reiterate in simple terms) is invented an argument noone is making (that it's teslas fault because there are no warnings), disagreed with it, then spent a page and a half telling me I hold a position I don't. Meanwhile there's definitely a few dead guys demonstrating my points.
how many people that dont have autopilot have died? Its proven to prevent accidents statistically, and lets say its given to the less smart people and most of them havent had an issue, dont you think its working to an extent?

Yes im aware that its a tick box, but do you think that it is not currently on because of factors such as, its not a finished article for fully autonomous? Maybe the roads aren't up to full autonomy? If they had ticked that box today, I would be worried. Tesla have said its not a complete product. The AP is essentially Lane departure warning mixed in with ACC and its probably the best at combining the two. Does that mean my Lexus RX450 which has both features, means I can take my hands off the wheel and eyes off the road? Its the same fkin thing boxed up and named as something else.

My bad, i must have misread you saying...

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They could compel people to remain attentive whilst using the system. They don't.
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Tesla are literally alpha testing hands off autopilot on roads.
False statement again. They dont tell any members of the public to do so currently.
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Old 05-Apr-2018, 14:00   #205
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It's proven to be fuck all at this stage other than a favourable investigation result in the guy who got decapped by a tractor trailer because his Tesla didn't see it and neither did he. Don't quote stats around a clear matter of sense. Drivers are not compelled to remain attentive. They can turn warnings off, they can ignore warnings with no impact in function, they can let the vehicle keep driving, the vehicle will try and do so. A Mondeo/Volvo/Skoda/Merc with Lane Assist and tiredness sensors is not designed for drivers to go hands off and does not provide the options (outside of lane holding and AAC). If you let go of the wheel they go apeshit because they know that's not safe because they are aware that they make cars. Tesla think they're still making software.
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Old 05-Apr-2018, 14:04   #206
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Tesla have made a call in how they disengage the system, with visual, sound and eventual disengagement and reducing of speed. Your original point was that you don't think Tesla's do this quickly or loudly enough. Okay, there's a reasonable debate there. I think its okay, I've only ever tried a Mercedes system. However most cars give you no warning when you take your hands off the wheel, and they have no advanced safety systems. People seemed pretty happy that the didn't need a car telling them to keep their hands on the wheel.

Not entirely sure what you mean by the same application Nersh. I highly doubt the software on a brand new Model S has production ready self driving capability in it. You assert that their current software is "alpha" level, based on 2(?) widely reported fatal accidents involving the autopilot system being engaged. Maybe you are basing on other facts as well. I'm assuming you don't actually believe the software is at a standard widely considered to be alpha level development, e.g. Wiki definition, but more that its just not production ready. Personally I think that is highly unlikely, and that Tesla will have considered their software against a software integrity framework such as SIL levels or similar.

People drive down the road texting on their phone in cars without (advanced lane keeping assists), and they crash. They do it in cars with it, and they still crash sometimes. If you're going to do it, do it in a car with (advanced lane keeping assists), it'll keep you and everyone else on the road safer.

Whilst there may have been an issue with it in earlier marketing, I think what they say now is honest and is in line by other manufacturers. I don't think the singular name 'Autopilot' is a significant influence on peoples perception of the system. People drive cars carelessly and have accidents. On this incident, if the driver didn't know of the lane divider because he hadn't drove the road much, or he did know it was there and chose to not pay attention along that section of road, then he was unreasonably careless.
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Old 05-Apr-2018, 14:10   #207
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It's proven to be fuck all at this stage other than a favourable investigation result in the guy who got decapped by a tractor trailer because his Tesla didn't see it and neither did he. Don't quote stats around a clear matter of sense. Drivers are not compelled to remain attentive. They can turn warnings off, they can ignore warnings with no impact in function, they can let the vehicle keep driving, the vehicle will try and do so. A Mondeo/Volvo/Skoda/Merc with Lane Assist and tiredness sensors is not designed for drivers to go hands off and does not provide the options (outside of lane holding and AAC). If you let go of the wheel they go apeshit because they know that's not safe because they are aware that they make cars. Tesla think they're still making software.
So the guy didnt see a huge trailer? If you are driving along a road, you wouldn't see it if you were being attentive?

You clearly avoided my point of many cars having lane assist, mercedes call it attention assist, and most of these cars you mention also have AAC. What do they compel you to do that Tesla doesn't do? The same feature thats in the Tesla are in other vehicles and most do nothing at all.

So you didnt start off with saying things likes Tesla advocates hands free driving, and doesnt give warnings about AP?
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Old 05-Apr-2018, 14:19   #208
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It's proven to be fuck all at this stage other than a favourable investigation result in the guy who got decapped by a tractor trailer because his Tesla didn't see it and neither did he. Don't quote stats around a clear matter of sense. Drivers are not compelled to remain attentive. They can turn warnings off, they can ignore warnings with no impact in function, they can let the vehicle keep driving, the vehicle will try and do so. A Mondeo/Volvo/Skoda/Merc with Lane Assist and tiredness sensors is not designed for drivers to go hands off and does not provide the options (outside of lane holding and AAC). If you let go of the wheel they go apeshit because they know that's not safe because they are aware that they make cars. Tesla think they're still making software.
I'll admit myself and Devs are on tricky debating ground if you're going to let 'sense' overrule facts and statistics. My personal view is that that attitude is not going to lead to improvements in car technology or public road safety.

To pick the first example from your list. I can't find any evidence that a Ford Mondeo has sensors that detect the drivers hands on the wheel. Ford did do a press release in 2010 saying they had a camera based system to detect drowsiness, that had a similar step up process as Tesla does, and detected drowsiness by watching how the car deviated from white road markings (not the driver themselves). However I can't find it listed under features on their website, so not sure if it comes on current cars Ford website on safety. It also only mentions "lane keeping system", which is probably marketed as a step down from Auto-pilot lane assistance.
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Old 05-Apr-2018, 14:21   #209
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Most cars aren't attempting to navigate lane changes and junctions whilst you have hands off the wheel. As you say it's clearly been a feature of their earlier marketing and remains a feature under promise per region in their messaging. These cars are designed and touted as new, increasingly products. It's rather disingenuous to compare their features to traditional cars with more basic assists.

Application - the sensors, the software, the appliance. It's not going to be torn out and replaced either physically or OTA when a given region allows self-drive. To that point yeah I absolutely believe that the codebase in use here contains their current best throw at self-drive and simply has functionality partially disabled. Why would you develop all that twice and have that feature self contained when you can live test it incrementally in assist implementations? On the basis that it's not prepared for it's use case in any real sense (shady lane markings=death) then it's alpha. If it's as you say, and doesn't have self-drive installed then it's absolutely alpha in the classic sense of being feature incomplete. That's a semantic aside though and the last two nerds on the planet will still arguing the difference.

Fail-fast. Agile, rapid release etc. Great for stuff used whilst sitting at desks. Feels like Tesla need to work to a higher standard to avoid further deaths on the road though. The USNTSB (or whatever it contracts to), whilst exonerating Tesla from liability claimed much the same and unlike me, they have all the detail.

https://jalopnik.com/limits-of-tesla...-fa-1803806982
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Old 05-Apr-2018, 14:22   #210
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I'll admit myself and Devs are on tricky debating ground if you're going to let 'sense' overrule facts and statistics.
Good one!. Statistics =/= Facts. Good job for the opposing debate probably because the fact remains that all these Tesla deaths were doing something other than driving their cars when they carked it.
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