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Old 06-Sep-2017, 11:14   #121
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It's like the conversation that never ends. Free movement in its current guise will end; it will take balls for an executive to defy that clear mandate in the referendum. That's why this is not news per se, although as a leaked policy document - probably one of many - and a best case position ahead of discussions with the EU this is all speculative. I'm not sure what certainty business can realistically expect as to employment rights at the current position.
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Old 06-Sep-2017, 11:15   #122
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Don't most of you work with people here from the EU? The thing that settled it for me wasn't any economic argument. It was that it if I were in their position I'd feel like it was utterly insulting to their contribution and how welcome they'd be made to feel.
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Old 06-Sep-2017, 11:18   #123
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My issue isn't the one of the 'end of free movement' I am fucking sick of hearing leave voters telling me how the EU need us more than we need them. It's akin to the farmer saying Asda needs him more than he needs Asda, its just disconnected from fucking reality.

I'de suggest any leave voter look back to the promises made before the referendum, then those made a month later.. and then compare them to where we are today. The narrative of leaving the EU is being changed slowly.
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Old 06-Sep-2017, 11:20   #124
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It's like the conversation that never ends. Free movement in its current guise will end; it will take balls for an executive to defy that clear mandate in the referendum. That's why this is not news per se, although as a leaked policy document - probably one of many - and a best case position ahead of discussions with the EU this is all speculative. I'm not sure what certainty business can realistically expect as to employment rights at the current position.
Not content with redesigning reality around the promise of an end of free movement that doesn't limit our ability to trade - you're now aiming to redefine the term "news"!. Bold stuff. Presumably the government wants a discussion otherwise they wouldn't have leaked it.
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Old 06-Sep-2017, 11:20   #125
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No, it really isn't.
I dunno - I can't help but feel that the Labour manifesto would be less

"more free stuff that debt, corporations and the top 4% of earners will pay for"

and more

"more free stuff that you in the 2nd to 9th deciles will pay for to create a more equal society like in Denmark"

if it weren't mostly true
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Old 06-Sep-2017, 11:22   #126
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I'm not sure what certainty business can realistically expect as to employment rights at the current position.
Relatively little, which is why government can't expect much from business in return.
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Old 06-Sep-2017, 11:38   #127
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It's all a massive clusterfuck that makes me think our system of government is intrinsically broken.

May can't fix it. Corbyn can't fix it. Give us another vote on the deal once known, let it fail, and let's go back to BAU.
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Old 06-Sep-2017, 11:38   #128
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Wish I'd voted lib dem
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Old 06-Sep-2017, 11:44   #129
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It's all a massive clusterfuck that makes me think our system of government is intrinsically broken.

May can't fix it. Corbyn can't fix it. Give us another vote on the deal once known, let it fail, and let's go back to BAU.
Problem is, now we've submitted A50 we can't just go back to how it was. The EU can rightly force us into the Euro among many other little things if we try to come back cap in hand. If I was Barnier (assuming I could) I would offer to continue the old BAU agreement publicly and watch the pandemonium.
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Old 06-Sep-2017, 11:46   #130
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We could definitely choose to stop this process if we wanted to. It's not in the EU's interest either. We'd lose the rebate and some political capital but we wouldn't have to join the Euro.
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Old 06-Sep-2017, 11:50   #131
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Don't most of you work with people here from the EU? The thing that settled it for me wasn't any economic argument. It was that it if I were in their position I'd feel like it was utterly insulting to their contribution and how welcome they'd be made to feel.
I understand people who voted Remain on this rationale but it doesn't necessarily follow that the Leave vote was centred around not fully considering our caring about the contributions of EU citizens. We work with Europeans; we also work with Australians who are limited to two year work visas and South Africans, Americans etc. I just don't see that changing immigration policy to target higher skilled workers going forward, wherever they originate, is a slight to EU citizens' contributions but rather the legitimate act of a nation state, of which current EU citizens resident in this country should and will form part.
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Old 06-Sep-2017, 11:51   #132
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In summary, the fact that free movement existed shouldn't be a barrier to its removal.
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Old 06-Sep-2017, 11:52   #133
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I'm referencing from an article I read in Economist a few months back. Granted they were suggesting the worst case scenario, but as you point out currently there is no real tangible incentive for the UK to back track.

If the old terms were offered, that would be one.

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In summary, the fact that free movement existed shouldn't be a barrier to its removal.
No, however isn't it a requirement for membership to the single market. The argument that we will still get access to that market without agreeing free trade was a key foundation of the Leave campaign, and one that is again slowly being eroded and changed.

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Old 06-Sep-2017, 11:57   #134
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It's not required for access no. And this is all part of the forthcoming negotiations on trade arrangements. Watch this space
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Old 06-Sep-2017, 12:03   #135
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You don't see it as a slight at all? If you were to put yourself in their position you can't see why they might feel unwelcome or disrespected that the place where they live and pay taxes has taken the view that overall they'd actually rather be better off if this mutual arrangement was terminated?

This also completely ignores the toxicity of the debate at the time - the comparison with other non-EU immigrants isn't really fair in this respect. The Leave campaign started off by trying to win the economic argument on some bullshit about being free to do whatever we wanted, and when that wasn't having any traction, switched tack to making it about immigration and border control.

While your summary is somewhat accurate, it really isn't the full picture and as we all have the benefit of having living through it recently, I think you're deliberately being a little bit blinkered if you can't understand why this was a deeply emotive issue for some.
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Old 06-Sep-2017, 12:08   #136
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I understand people who voted Remain on this rationale but it doesn't necessarily follow that the Leave vote was centred around not fully considering our caring about the contributions of EU citizens. We work with Europeans; we also work with Australians who are limited to two year work visas and South Africans, Americans etc. I just don't see that changing immigration policy to target higher skilled workers going forward, wherever they originate, is a slight to EU citizens' contributions but rather the legitimate act of a nation state, of which current EU citizens resident in this country should and will form part.
Isn't that by design to strengthen the EU trading bloc against other self-protecting regions?
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Old 06-Sep-2017, 12:09   #137
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I understand the emotions, particularly in light of the fact that those EU citizens had no say in the vote, but ultimately I believe there were better reasons for voting whichever way one did in the referendum than a mate or partner is an EU citizen. If someone genuinely sees me as cruel or uncaring for voting Leave, then that's disappointing but not something that would sway my position.
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Old 06-Sep-2017, 12:14   #138
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I have no issue with you saying that you personally prioritised other issues first but denying it as having no intended slight is wrong or at least a gross misrepresentation.
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Old 06-Sep-2017, 12:24   #139
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Yes but I guess I struggle to understand where to draw the line on this? It is a slight to me when half the country voted for Corbyn, but ultimately that's the nature of a political decision, particularly in binary referenda. If it gets to the situation where current EU citizens who have indeed contributed to this country are being forcibly booted out then I'll be joining the ranks of those protesting, but I don't believe that's a realistic scenario.
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Old 06-Sep-2017, 12:42   #140
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It's not required for access no. And this is all part of the forthcoming negotiations on trade arrangements. Watch this space
So when we don't get access to the single market, without agreeing some form of freedom of movement will you concede this point. OR will you do what I expect most leave voters to do, believe the PR that says you got EXACTLY what you wanted?

I won't be happy if you do the later you know. As I'll feel like I've been debating with a peppermint for a number of years.
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Old 06-Sep-2017, 12:48   #141
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Isn't this basically the same as the Australian model, which the government said they didn't want to follow?
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Old 06-Sep-2017, 12:58   #142
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Isn't that by design to strengthen the EU trading bloc against other self-protecting regions?
It might be based on the yank model, but Europe has long since moved away from needing labour shifts to support resource booms. At the moment its more a rural to urban depopulation flow in support of service industries, but with the gaining areas being the wealthy western areas. This is economically good for the block as a whole (as it would be for an individual country), but terrible for some of the individual nations I imagine (the Baltics have lost like 25% of their productive demographics).

But I think the freedom to migrate and work (rather than move) is really EU dogma to minimise nationalism based on inherited wisdom from ww2. This was a good idea I think, but clearly the perception is that it has gone too far. The typical refrain to the statement "there are just too many" is that the foreign population is only 5%, but I think that 5% is more like 30% of strangers that people interact with day to day in shops, trades etc - which I suspect drives the sentiment
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Old 06-Sep-2017, 13:09   #143
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but clearly the perception is that it has gone too far.
Yes, but this is sentiment that has been fed to the masses for two decades as the reason the NHS is creaking and Housing issue and the Schools. It's not a lack of investment by government due to funding issues, its all those bloody immigrants.

Ooop' norf the people I speak to who voted leave (on immigration) voted because 'they're taking all our jobs/houses/school places/hospital beds' and they tend to be at pains to say "I'm not racist BUT"

They're not racist, they just dont understand there are other REAL issues causing these problems and immigration isn't that issue.
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Old 06-Sep-2017, 13:51   #144
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But you have to accept the reality that for any fixed pot of cash, if there are a large amount of immigrants that are net takers from the system (which with the A8 countries barely breaking even in total implies ~70% are net negative), then they are in a zero sum game with the native consumers of the services.
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Old 06-Sep-2017, 14:04   #145
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But it's not a fixed pot of cash.
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Old 06-Sep-2017, 14:07   #146
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Sorry maybe I'm missing your point here, but we have near full employment in this country. The issue with our benefits system is a result of an aging population, not one of immigration.
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Old 06-Sep-2017, 14:40   #147
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Sorry maybe I'm missing your point here, but we have near full employment in this country. The issue with our benefits system is a result of an aging population, not one of immigration.
We don't have anywhere near full employment, it just looks that way because people who were getting sanctioned all the time have stopped going the Jobcentre, as they were getting their money stopped anyway.
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Old 06-Sep-2017, 14:52   #148
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Plus all the poor slaves on Workfare don't count as unemployed.
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Old 06-Sep-2017, 14:58   #149
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Or those on zero hour contracts
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Old 06-Sep-2017, 15:00   #150
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That sounds like utter speculation CS, and you know I can't stand Daily Mail type speculation.

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Originally Posted by ONS
1) The employment rate (the proportion of people aged from 16 to 64 who were in work) was 74.9%, the highest since comparable records began in 1971

2) The unemployment rate (the proportion of those in work plus those unemployed, that were unemployed) was 4.5%, down from 4.9% for a year earlier and the lowest since 1975

ONS Link
Lets not turn this into a Zero Hours debate again, this is purely about the numbers and the fact that immigration is not a 'drain' on our benefits pot and other cash reserves as suggested earlier.
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