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Old 11-Oct-2012, 12:42   #61
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I'm a way through now in dribs and drabs and this is shamefully weak - as before forgetting did he/didn't he and just looking at the evidence, there just isn't a smoking gun. There's plenty of what can be generously considered Circumstantial Evidence but the closest they've come to anything direct thus far is the Actovegin accusation which fell bloody short of the mark in review at the time.

Horrendously tenuous stab at the UCI on p. 51/52 also.

It feels like this would get shredded by even an average defence brief in any court. But then it effectively did didn't it.

It's abundantly clear why the USADA been in no hurry to publicise this. Just an appalling shame that they've spent the interim years kicking up an entirely unstructured personal fuss over it.
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Old 11-Oct-2012, 13:22   #62
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It would be great if there were some smoking guns to put it to bed, but can you really discount so much eye witness accounts from so many team mates? I've posted in the past that I thought how much credence can you put in Landis and Hamiltons testimony, but with guys like Hincapie admitting to it?

Do you think he was involved in doping or simply the case against him has been done poorly ?

Surely if he was innocent and the evidence was easy to defend against he would still be contesting it.
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Old 11-Oct-2012, 13:26   #63
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It was Hincapie's statement yesterday that got me doubting.
I don't know what to think anymore.
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Old 11-Oct-2012, 13:59   #64
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Do you think he was involved in doping or simply the case against him has been done poorly ?
Of course I don't think he's innocent - but what I think has very little to do with how a body such as the WADA should go about things and shouldn't have any bearing on how their long-awaited evidence is reviewed. Further along similar lines, it matters not what I think about the eye witness accounts, the fact remains is that the majority would be likely be found utterly inadmissible based on character, delays in affidavits (years in some cases), various prosecutions of said witnesses and the abundant level of leaks and information that's dripped out of both the ADA case and the abandoned federal case.

The situation as I see it, is that the ADA fluffed their chances to test him positively and decided some years back to abandon their own medical evidence and instead go to the ends of the earth to build a case on testimony that even federal investigators wouldn't touch with a bargepole.


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Surely if he was innocent and the evidence was easy to defend against he would still be contesting it.
I think it would be totally defensible if it came to it but that doesn't mean for a moment that it'll be cheap or quick.

Here's some more food for thought - if the evidence is as overwhelming as they say it was, and the entire sodding team were at it non-stop, is it not hugely troubling that the body that still polices doping in sport was utterly unable to pin any clinical evidence on USPS until individuals failed tests in other teams after the fact?
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Old 11-Oct-2012, 14:38   #65
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Really struggling to properly describe what bugs me - I think it's mainly that the ADA seems not to hold itself to the standard it should. They seem happy to attempt to clear their own names on evidence that would be smashed to bits under any true legal process. Today it's Lance armstrong, who was it yesterday, who will it be tomorrow and how impartial will those cases be?
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Old 11-Oct-2012, 15:23   #66
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I'm not sure this evidence would be thrown out. The witness testimony is pretty compelling.
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Old 11-Oct-2012, 15:31   #67
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More-so in that it seems that folk who were actively involved in the doping have come out and said yes we were doing it. Or have I got that wrong? I've not had time to read the 1000 page behemoth. So yeh, I could very well be wrong.
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Old 11-Oct-2012, 15:32   #68
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The testimony that isn't from discredited team members or rivals certainly is damning.

Little mention of how the physician knew about the ADA testing schedule I notice. They don't seem to have investigated that in anywhere near the detail that other aspects have enjoyed.
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Old 11-Oct-2012, 19:36   #69
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Armstrong was the tours cash-cow. It was in their best interest he didn't get caught.
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Old 11-Oct-2012, 20:40   #70
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That explains why the UCI testing schedule was known (and why they made no effort to disguise it), but it doesn't explain how they avoided USADA testing.
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Old 11-Oct-2012, 20:47   #71
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Somewhere in the 70's there was mention that "he (the doc) seemed to have insider information about ADA testing".
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Old 11-Oct-2012, 20:56   #72
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19917856

Banstick waved. Six months unless your first name is Lance.
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Old 12-Oct-2012, 12:37   #73
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Well that was decades of pointless shit then.
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Old 12-Oct-2012, 12:39   #74
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You've got to wonder if the disparity in distance performance for GB Cycling (and possibly others that I didn't follow) at the Olympics has anything to do with the more stringent testing haven't you.
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Old 12-Oct-2012, 12:52   #75
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It will have certainly helped but the amount of cash thrown at British cycling after a successful Bejing is also a factor.
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Old 12-Oct-2012, 15:42   #76
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When out on my bike years ago i dreamt of having as many tour de france wins as Lance Armstrong.

Who would have thought that a decade later i would have?
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Old 12-Oct-2012, 16:03   #77
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He's getting crucified from all angles at the moment:

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The 41-year-old, accused of being "a serial drugs cheat", was in court looking to win a case against an insurance company over bonus payments.

He stated under oath that he did not take any performance-enhancing drugs.

Usada says his statements in court were false and consequently "subject to the penalties of perjury".

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Old 22-Oct-2012, 13:12   #78
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/20008520

Well, that's that. Now that all the brazen, endemic doping has been proved beyond doubt, Pat McQuaid will have far more time on his hands now to continue suing all the journalists that said the UCI were doing nothing about all the brazen, endemic doping.
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Old 22-Oct-2012, 14:06   #79
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It's been known for years about him (Ashenden 1999 sample re-test, Tour de Suisse positive sample, etc, etc)

Surprised at McQuaid he was as much "in on it" as the rest of the UCI, ask him where the $15,000 (or thereabouts) went when Lance "donated" the money for the test machine, he has some balls though it has to be said with his latest outburst...

People who have followed professional cycling religiously have known that Lance Armstrong was a serial user, along with the rest of US Postal and probably 90% of the Peloton since 1989. Lauren Fignon mentions how in the 1989 Tour that it was like someone had instantly activated some form of turbo boost to the peloton, that turbo being EPO.

Armstrong the cunt bared his arse for all to see on Mt. Ventoux when he took on Mr Hematocrit himself Marco Pantini who in 1995 had a haematocrit of 64% and maintained these levels to 2001 through the use of r-EPO.

I just hope that this is the end of several decades of torrid abuse of the what is to me the real "beautiful game".

p.s. I wonder what the US government think of all this sorry tale considering that the team where all this happened was in US Postal, mmm this could have far more reaching consequences than just cycling.
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Old 22-Oct-2012, 14:10   #80
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They already dropped the fraudulent use of funding case way back. (USP were basically publicly funded and signed contracts with stipulations against doping) I don't know if/what aspects of double jeopardy apply and when but imagine it's this threat that leads Armstrong to stick to his guns more than the loss of Tour medals.
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Old 22-Oct-2012, 14:38   #81
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They already dropped the fraudulent use of funding case way back. (USP were basically publicly funded and signed contracts with stipulations against doping) I don't know if/what aspects of double jeopardy apply and when but imagine it's this threat that leads Armstrong to stick to his guns more than the loss of Tour medals.
And potentially his (from casual reading) lucrative sponsorship deals worth c.$15-20m a year that have now evaporated.
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Old 22-Oct-2012, 14:47   #82
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He's had ten-fifteen years of the good times rolling there at least. It's not like they can take it back. The nest egg will be handy if he spends the next ten-fifteen years in jail.
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Old 22-Oct-2012, 14:55   #83
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Yeah, but I'm not sure how much he's actually banked over that period. If he had a 10 year contract with Nike he might have been spending quite freely. Might have, for I have not the slightest clue of course.
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Old 22-Oct-2012, 14:56   #84
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But yeah, whatever he's saved isn't going anywhere.
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Old 22-Oct-2012, 20:32   #85
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Uh, maybe it is.
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Old 22-Oct-2012, 21:24   #86
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Gosh. Not wanting to go ott, but could we see Lance washed up and bankrupt in a year or two? There must be lots of angry sponsors and employers out there that want their cash back and who can blame them. How quickly life can change eh?!

The biggest thing that bothers me is if Lance did dope throughout his career, his life has been a lie from start to finish. How can someone live with themselves when everything they've achieved and built-up (including intangible things like reputation etc) is a complete lie? The cancer stuff as well was all just a smoke screen. I mean ok he had cancer, but it was used as a tool to try and convince people that he couldn't/wouldn't dope.

Dear or dear.
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Old 22-Oct-2012, 22:58   #87
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I really don't get it.
I mean REALLY don't.
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Old 23-Oct-2012, 10:33   #88
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not a fan of cycling but I'm a fan of clean sport.
this is a crying shame for all, including the fans.

nike as a sponsor though. but of an ironic tag-line now!
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Old 23-Oct-2012, 11:50   #89
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It's a real shame. I agree with what Millar said

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/20034768

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At this moment, I feel sadness more than anything. I lived through this and had my own taste of admitting my doping past.

In truth, what has happened is not reflective of the sport. For it to come out all at once is not fair on many of the young guys who have never encountered doping and never will.

I do think that Lance should come clean, but I also know Lance and the sheer scale of what that would represent for him.

He has had a decade of libel cases and he might even go to jail. It has got so big it might be very complex for him. It is simply not a case of coming clean just to clear his conscience. He would have to do it tactically. "
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Old 23-Oct-2012, 13:21   #90
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Can I just say now and publicly that I may have raced with both stimulants and pain blockers (namely caffeine and alcohol) in my system. I'm not proud. Hopefully you can see it in your hearts to forgive me
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OT: Lance Armstrong - Man or Machine? Sysagent Half-Life: Counter-Strike 68 26-Jul-2004 13:36

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