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Old 15-Jan-2018, 09:00   #1
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Carillion have gone bust

Deal couldn't be reached over the weekend so they've gone into receivership. Odds on the government taking them public, selling off the profitable bits to their mates for pennies then keeping the loss making bits as an example of how public companies don't work?
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Old 15-Jan-2018, 10:55   #2
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Fucking useless anyway - we had a insurance claim with them years back and the stupid cunts tried to claim a collapsed drain on my drive was down to people walking over it - over a paved drive - WALKING...
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Old 15-Jan-2018, 11:49   #3
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Massive Pension fund deficit shocker. At least shareholders got a nice dividend six months ago before it collapsed though, apparently completely predictably to all the hedge funds betting against it since 2013.
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Old 15-Jan-2018, 13:48   #4
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Whats so shocking about the pension fund being fucked up ? - it's a government org - frankly im fucking amazed they even know what a pension is.
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Old 15-Jan-2018, 14:09   #5
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It's not, and it's not.
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Old 15-Jan-2018, 14:26   #6
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Their valuation of net pension liabilities doubled to £800m in 2016 when they halved the discount rate. They were probably sitting on that one for a while. That's a massive change in the underlying assumptions.
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Old 15-Jan-2018, 14:31   #7
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And they were still given £billions in contracts afterwards. GG government, wp.
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Old 15-Jan-2018, 14:41   #8
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The Government fucked up and didn't follow it's own rules when issuing those contracts. It is supposed to re-evaluate when the contractor issues a profit warning. Carillion issued 3 over 18 months...

I was also amused at everyone yelling at the Government to bail them out, even though they can't due to EU state aid rules.

Anyway, a crap company goes bankrupt and the public purse is left holding the bill for the pensions and has to bring all the services Carillion was contracted for in-house. GG Privatisation.
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Old 15-Jan-2018, 15:09   #9
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There’s a lot to say about this, but the folks complaining about the government having to bail out the pension fund while at the same time complaining about the business being awarded contracts... hmmmm.
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Old 15-Jan-2018, 15:28   #10
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Hmmm maybe they should have been awarded after a sturdy audit with stipulations ensuring further pension ring-fencing and the blocking or capping of dividends or hmmm something else?
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Old 15-Jan-2018, 15:34   #11
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Well they stopped paying a dividend and there’s not much scope for additional ring fencing, so...?
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Old 15-Jan-2018, 15:36   #12
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I took the impression that they were still paying out within the last six months, but rumours abound I suppose.
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Old 15-Jan-2018, 17:51   #13
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11th May seems to have been their last dividend date, could be wrong though.
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Old 15-Jan-2018, 18:07   #14
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stupid cunts tried to claim a collapsed drain on my drive was down to people walking over it - over a paved drive - WALKING...
bloody fat housemate?
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Old 15-Jan-2018, 19:55   #15
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I didn't realise that this is the company that's building the new Royal Liverpool Hospital. It was due to open last August, but was behind schedule, and the last I heard, it was due to open sometime in February. It's just been on the local news that they have now had to put in contingency plans, because they don't know what's happening.
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Old 15-Jan-2018, 21:12   #16
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Well they stopped paying a dividend and there’s not much scope for additional ring fencing, so...?
So just to back this up a bit so I end up with some sort of clue and sense of scale about this - what's the rough totals dividends in the last three years? Because it's hard to understand why dividends continue to be paid with any generosity whatsoever whilst payments into a pension pot aren't being made.
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Old 15-Jan-2018, 21:24   #17
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Payments to the pension deficit were being made. I haven't read much into this but they'll have needed to be on track with their deficit contributions before making divis. Given the extended nature of pension liabilities and subjectivity of assumptions, the requirement to plug the deficit is a long term obligation.

This is why most of us have shit pensions.

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Old 15-Jan-2018, 21:52   #18
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Payments to the pension deficit were being made. I haven't read much into this but they'll have needed to be on track with their deficit contributions before making divis. Given the extended nature of pension liabilities and subjectivity of assumptions, the requirement to plug the deficit is a long term obligation.

This is why most of us have shit pensions.
Without wanting to point out the obvious they got it pretty wrong.
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Old 15-Jan-2018, 21:54   #19
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Welcome to every defined benefit pension scheme in the world.
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Old 15-Jan-2018, 21:58   #20
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Well yes but it’s less of an issue when you don’t run your business into the ground.
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Old 15-Jan-2018, 21:59   #21
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Indeed, the issue is not the pension fund assumptions, it’s the running the business into the ground bit.
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Old 15-Jan-2018, 22:01   #22
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Without wanting to point out the obvious they got it pretty wrong.
Must have been the whole bidding for work at a lower price than it costs to execute it then apparently not noticing that all the work you were doing was making a loss yet pocketing a load of money anyway thing.
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Old 15-Jan-2018, 22:49   #23
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Indeed, the issue is not the pension fund assumptions, it’s the running the business into the ground bit.
Yes and no , boards obviously have an amount of leeway as to plugging the gaps. A deficit isn’t unusual but given corporate cultures how many boards do you see cutting dividends rather than deferring pension contributions? It’s too simplistic to say a pension deficit is a sign of bad management but it takes wilful blindness not to think it warrants scrutiny of corporate governance.

*edit* the accounts are a pain to read on mobile but why am I not surprised to see a progressive dividend policy mentioned heavily.

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Old 16-Jan-2018, 00:16   #24
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Stuff like continuing to pay Howson after he left, and changing the clawback rules so that they couldn't get money back off directors if the firm went bust absolutely stink.
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Old 16-Jan-2018, 06:41   #25
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A deficit isn’t unusual but given corporate cultures how many boards do you see cutting dividends rather than deferring pension contributions?
None, because I don’t see companies deferring pension contributions any more. Beef will know more about this than me, but deferring pension contributions is practically unheard of since the rights of the pension trustees were significantly strengthened about a decade ago. The assumptions, broadly speaking, get updated every three years and contributions set accordingly.
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Old 16-Jan-2018, 08:15   #26
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Deferring was a bad choice of words. I mean either reducing or not increasing payments. 2016 accounts show the dividend increasing , the pension deficit increasing and the pension payment decreasing. That bears scrutiny given subsequent events. Not entirely sure why you would think that a board that got so much else wrong got this right , though it obviously needs a lot deeper a look than any of us is likely to do.

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Old 16-Jan-2018, 08:50   #27
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I’m not commenting on the specifics here at all. But... the revalued pension deficit in 2016 (if that’s when it happened) would result in higher payments in 2017 and onwards.
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Old 16-Jan-2018, 08:59   #28
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Having checked, their next deficit reduction plan was due to be agreed in 2017, probably with a 10-15 year plan to close the gap.
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Old 16-Jan-2018, 09:21   #29
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That would have went well then! I think I’ve slightly digressed from the original point I was trying to make that its rather silly to blanket accept pension deficits as being acceptable. This isn’t to say they’re not but when a company this big collapses you should absolutely take over what has occurred to see what you can learn from it from all sorts of angles (corporate governance , accounting standards etc). And progressive dividends just seems like a total abandonment of board responsibility but given how common they are I’m not sure anyone agrees.
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Old 16-Jan-2018, 10:04   #30
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Yep
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