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View Poll Results: Should the UK leave the EU?
Yes 15 15.63%
No 81 84.38%
Voters: 96. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-Feb-2017, 00:41   #1711
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I'll take that as a yes
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Old 10-Feb-2017, 00:49   #1712
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Somehow I'm not sure playing beggar thy neighbour was part of the EU's rationale behind free movement, although given the decisions taken in the Euro crisis who knows.
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Old 13-Feb-2017, 09:24   #1713
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Don't know if anyone watched this last week on BBC, Brexit: A Battle for Europe.
Thought it was very interesting.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...tle-for-europe
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Old 17-Feb-2017, 14:22   #1714
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. Ad hominem but amusing!
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Old 17-Feb-2017, 14:29   #1715
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Someone needs to take Blair to the side and explain that no leadership on an issue is probably less poisonous than his leadership.
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Old 17-Feb-2017, 14:55   #1716
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He's toxic. The remarkable thing is that a man blessed with such talents hasn't the self-awareness to realise (or at least chooses to ignore) that for most people the instinctive reaction to seeing his mug is to think "not you again do fuck off".
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Old 17-Feb-2017, 15:10   #1717
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I think he's publicly toxic but he remains someone who can clearly make things happen in the back office.
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Old 17-Feb-2017, 15:11   #1718
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Here is the transcript of his speech:

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/02...brexit-speech/
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Old 17-Feb-2017, 15:18   #1719
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He makes a very reasonable point - i.e. that we shouldn't necessarily be bound by a public vote taken at one point in time given that circumstances may change and what was believed / offered at that time doesn't turn out to be true.

My point is that he cannot be the messenger for that - and he should be aware of that fact. If his motivations are genuine and not merely a convenient opportunity for his re-entry into politics then he should recognise that someone else has to be the public face.
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Old 17-Feb-2017, 15:31   #1720
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Maybe, although it'd be a stronger argument if someone with any credibility was out there making the case.
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Old 17-Feb-2017, 16:22   #1721
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Perfect time for Milliband, D. to cruise back into UK politics.
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Old 17-Feb-2017, 16:34   #1722
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Except no-one with any sense wants to touch the Labour Party with the Corbyn idiots governing leader selection.
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Old 17-Feb-2017, 16:44   #1723
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Some masterful commentary there from Boris. Showing just how to manipulate the public without actually lying about it.

Into the Euro not only did Labour not take us into the Euro, establishing a clear line in the sand for the economic bar that the Euro would have to meet before we would. They also didn't shirk leadership responsibility by giving the general public a referendum on such a divisive and critical issue. Which only now are we beginning to see the truth come out from.

Iraq Divisive? yes. Wrong? depends, I'm broadly supportive of the Iraq campaign. The aftermath and recovery programme was poorly delivered and supported internationally but removing Saddam was the right thing. Not getting involved, well just look at Syria where Politicians were too scared to get involved fearing public backlash.. arguably every UK citizen has blood on their hands from that conflict.


My views are my own, but my point is that Boris has delivered a masterclass in manipulating the public perception without defending any of his parties positions or politics. I'm happy to get into the Tony Blair debate again on here, as he is arguably one of the greatest leaders the country has had in recent years.

That said, if your starting position is that he is a cnut or the anti-christ I won't bother as its obviously more a personal belief then an informed view.
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Old 17-Feb-2017, 16:49   #1724
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Wow is that ever a binary interpretation of the Syrian conflict. One of the biggest influences in that regional conflict is Isis, who came about as a direct result of the power vacuum left by our interventionist policies in Iraq.

Also, David Cameron wanted us to go into the Syrian conflict against Isis by supporting Assad and then less than 18 months later was approving the bombing of Assad's forces as it turned out he was a bit nasty too.
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Old 17-Feb-2017, 16:53   #1725
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There wasn't a referendum on the euro, but the only reason we aren't in it is because of how badly it polled
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Old 17-Feb-2017, 16:57   #1726
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It is quite binary I agree, and its impossible to predict what or how things would of turned out had the west been more involved in the Arab Spring and the resulting civil war in Syria.

What isn't impossible though, is to state that the west dropped the ball due to a perceived lack of public support. Arguably an intervention that should of occured when Assad used chemical weapons on his own citizens - Irrespective of the fact that we then had to use Russian influence to negotiate the weapons from Syria.

But yeah.. Brilliant.
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Old 17-Feb-2017, 17:00   #1727
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Leady:
Five economic tests.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_economic_tests

Thats the whole point, you elect leaders to lead. Not delegate important decisions down to a popular vote.
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Old 17-Feb-2017, 17:00   #1728
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The main point I was making is that there is a direct causal link between the Iraq war and the conflict in Syria that we see today, and your support for removing Saddam as the best thing to do in the circumstances ignores that and suggests that we should have got more involved in an expensive conflict with no sane victory condition as a result.
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Old 17-Feb-2017, 17:07   #1729
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Leady:
Five economic tests.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_economic_tests

Thats the whole point, you elect leaders to lead. Not delegate important decisions down to a popular vote.
Yeah those scream posthoc rationalisation to me (not yours, but the governments to squash a brutally unpopular policy)

I should add that I'm not in favour of referendums, but most of politics is unsurprising based on public opinion

final edit I swear - naturally we don't know the consequences of not offering a referendum, but here is one not hugely unlikely one. UKIP would have gained that extra 5% of support to tip over quite a few seats with the net consequence that we would likely have the UKIP - Tory government that the popular vote would have given. Under those circumstances I suspect the Tories would be forced into a referendum anyway but with the added pain of UKIP holding political balance of power

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Old 17-Feb-2017, 17:13   #1730
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It's too speculative to make any sensible link between the current situation in Syria and the Iraq war. Innumerable decisions and unknowable circumstances render any assertion about the ethics of the Iraq war in connection to what has or would have happened in Syria virtually pointless and almost certainly unreliable to discuss from a practical point of view.

What is reasonable to ask is this: was the way in which Blair conducted himself during that time in leading this country, his cabinet, and Parliament into that war ethical?
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Old 17-Feb-2017, 17:20   #1731
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Beef, whats your view on how ethical his leading of the country was during his entire time in office? including the Good Friday Agreement? the intervention in Africa? dealing with the Euro? As well as the Iraq war.

I'll stick my neck out and say that I broadly consider his conduct to of been ethical and in the best interests of the country.. but thats my view and I'm more interested in your informed one (not the emotional - "he's a cnut" view)
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Old 17-Feb-2017, 17:41   #1732
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I don't claim to be any more informed than you are on this but I think your question then becomes: can we ameliorate some wrongs on the basis of other unconnected positive outcomes? I would say that ethics isn't like an account balance where you quantify the credits and debits and if you're net positive then that means everything is fine. I'd suggest that ethical behaviour is intrinsically linked to conduct, actions and intentions in relation to a particular matter.

And so whether he behaved ethically in relation to the Iraq war, I'd argue that based on what we know now that there is a better case that the way he conducted himself didn't meet those standards (from the dodgy dossier, UN weapons inspectors, mass protests, cabinet resignations, Chilcot, etc.) and I think it's increasingly clear that the public at large and history will judge him unfavourably on that.
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Old 17-Feb-2017, 17:49   #1733
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Agree that there's some level of whataboutery but it's pretty certain that without the American / British removal of the existing power in the region without an effective replacement we don't see a lot of what happens later.

Also, Putin's take on the Western (esp American) involvement in Syria and how it has helped grow Isis as a result of the mercenaries created from the Iraq conflict switching sides.

A still fairly 2 dimensional overview of the rise of IS but has at least some level of detail:

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Old 01-Mar-2017, 11:57   #1734
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Brexit means... Nissan asking for 100m to support the local chain otherwise they'll fuck off.

https://www.ft.com/content/9bd3e876-...8-3700c5664d30
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Old 01-Mar-2017, 12:45   #1735
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if nothing else, that's another choice we haven't had to worry about for a while
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Old 20-Mar-2017, 12:34   #1736
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Radio 5live: Article 50 to be triggered Wednesday 29th.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39325561

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Old 20-Mar-2017, 13:01   #1737
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Independence day!
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Old 20-Mar-2017, 13:13   #1738
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Let us cast off the shackles of the stable pound!
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Old 20-Mar-2017, 23:31   #1739
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Magnificent from Janan Ganesh.

https://www.ft.com/content/35dc3b9a-...0-768954394623

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Old 21-Mar-2017, 00:05   #1740
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Too subscriby;didn't read
Edit: oops, didn't see the quote
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