EU Referendum

[andy]

So, there will be a referendum in 2016/17 on the UK's participation in the EU. It's probably a little early to do a poll like this given the European negotiations haven't yet taken place but nonetheless, what do you think? How would you vote?

They've already announced that EU citizens cannot vote in the election - a nonsense really; ignoring the Irish/Commonwealth silliness, if an EU citizen has been here an amount of time to meet permanent residency requirements, they should be entitled to vote for such a matter considering it will affect them.

[RJ]

Not sure the common person has enough education or information to be able to make a decision like that. I don't think I have met a single person that fully understands the implications of such a decision. Just seems to be over simplifying a really complex topic as its made up of economic and political considerations, the common market shared laws combined policing and intelligence sharing - whats going to happen to all this?

[andy]

Well there will be lots of noise on either sides of the fence about the consequences leading up to the referendum but, ultimately, we will have to make the decision.

[Beef~]

I work with a lot of multinational companies as part of my job. Their view is that this would be an unmitigated disaster. Access to markets - and the certainty of the regulatory and legislative regime is very important to them.

On a broader note, you only have to look at the wider themes of globalisation to see that consolidation is essential to our competitiveness. The notion that we can somehow retain preferential access to the EU trading block, without compromises on political issues, is criminally naive.

[andy]

As much as I think we'd be better off in, I remember lots of 'disaster' talk around us not being involved in the Euro over a decade ago. And frankly I think most would agree it's best we didn't get involved in that club. I believe we're better off in, but I dispute the disaster talk about being out - business unsurprisingly doesn't like change, but the 'In' group will need to be more refined in its talking up of the EU in my view.

[Beef~]

I take your point - but I think the difference to recognise here is that one of those options is far more certain than the other. We are already in the EU (which was not the case with the Euro) and as you imply there is a wide continuum of consequences from leaving, and where we would land is completely unclear.

It's essentially a vote for either the status quo or for change; but without any specifics on what that change might look like. That is what I think businesses are most concerned about.

[Hot Soup]

Originally Posted by andy

They've already announced that EU citizens cannot vote in the election - a nonsense really; ignoring the Irish/Commonwealth silliness, if an EU citizen has been here an amount of time to meet permanent residency requirements, they should be entitled to vote for such a matter considering it will affect them.

Indeed, if your living here, paying taxes etc you should have a say. I doubt we'll get a well balanced debate in the run up but I'd like to see one. I firmly believe we're better off as part of the EU than out but even saying that , I would like to understand more about it - what legislation derives from the EU, the finances involved etc

It'd be a crying shame if anti immigration nonsense and back biting Tories set the tone for this.

[Chef_uk]

I just have visions of Putin replicating the Dads Army credits if we were to leave the EU and that is something I would not want to see.

[mr_o]

So you think if Britain left the EU that Russia would invade us or the EU? Or you don't want a Russian re-make of Dads Army?

To me, leaving is a nonstarter.

[Ferg]

I'm a "no" voter... however.... if Cameron gets nothing in terms of changes to our relationship, that might change to a "yes".

I am for global consolidation and integration, however, I believe the current EU is unfair balanced against some countries.

[Hot Soup]

Originally Posted by Ferg

I believe the current EU is unfair balanced against some countries.

In what way do you think that?

[stepper]

I guess in reference to the amount of power Germany and France have compared to other countries.

For me, its a no. We should be part of the EU, the benefits outweigh the cons, but I do believe we should have more power over regulating our own affairs.

[leady]

I don't believe the medium to long term consequences will be huge to leaving would be huge, we'd simply be a bigger Norway or Switzerland. Yes some people might argue that we lose the ability to direct eu legislation (straight bananas), but the UK has always been terrible at that anyway and overzealous in implementing things other nations gloss over - which I think is a direct hold from the British and continental styles of government.

All the UK really needs from the EU are border control, although throw in the ability to recreate the human rights act (another the UK implements strictly, whereas other signees seem to be more relaxed) and the dismantling of the CAP (Germany's post war bribe of France) and you would have a winner

[mr_o]

What powers do people think we should have that we don't currently?

[Mazzahoo]

Xray vision

[[n00b]Zippy]

Originally Posted by Mazzahoo

Xray vision

Through clothes and stuff? Hell yes!

Not most any of the people's clothes on here though, no offence.

[leady]

Originally Posted by mr_o

What powers do people think we should have that we don't currently?

No automatic right of work or benefits for new EU migrants (i'd do it as a simple job must be worth > £000s basis if I wanted to ruin labour and UKIP).

Supremacy of the UK supreme court for UK citizens under law

Reversal of tax harmonisation laws (I understand why they exist, but the EU collectively cripples itself to external competition by essentially adopting the highest levels)

France must have a national day of surrender

Any further enlargement

Things I don't hugely care about:

the idea of an EU military force or at least a combined EU force outside of NATO (NATO is good for stopping global conflagration- not for other things as a US lead operation)

commercial regulations - petty and restrictive but meh

International trade deals - understandable in a free trade zone

[cunning-stunt]

No open borders!

[Hamspoons]

Nope, we should stay in. I don't see the benefit in isolating ourselves. What about 10/20 years down the line?

I seem to remember Europe putting their foot down in our attempts to ditch net neutrality. I'm sure BT will have their cable clippers at the ready if we did leave.

[Eja Cool8]

Originally Posted by cunning-stunt

No open borders!

[Beef~]

Originally Posted by leady

Reversal of tax harmonisation laws (I understand why they exist, but the EU collectively cripples itself to external competition by essentially adopting the highest levels)

Not sure this is factually accurate. The US has a tax rate of about 40% for companies. Australia and Japan are in the thirties - like most of continental Europe. The UK is a comparative haven at 20%. The Dutch and Belgians offer a range of incentives to bring down their headline rates in other ways.

[Lungboy]

Originally Posted by Ferg

if Cameron gets nothing in terms of changes to our relationship, that might change to a "yes".

The cynic in me thinks that this is Cameron's angle. He knows he'll get fuck all out of Europe, so by pushing this agenda he gets the Out vote he actually wants.

[Lord Fondlemaid]

Purely from a selfish point of view, I think we should stay in.

I can't imagine that leaving will make the lives of the hundreds of thousands of British expats / immigrants within the EU any easier.

[leady]

Originally Posted by Beef~

Not sure this is factually accurate. The US has a tax rate of about 40% for companies. Australia and Japan are in the thirties - like most of continental Europe. The UK is a comparative haven at 20%. The Dutch and Belgians offer a range of incentives to bring down their headline rates in other ways.

I'm thinking across the range of taxes, each in their own way a drag - but as you say the raw percentages mean highly different things in different countries (I'm not sure how they do it, but I'd be flabbergasted if MS or Apple are paying 40% on profits...)

But the tendency will always to level upwards not down unsurprisingly

on the movement rights of British nationals, I don't think there will be a single restriction added to residency or access rights of UK citizens as its nearly 100% gravy to the continent. Worst you'll see is a benefit tightening (so the bunch of British wasters in Germany might need to get a job )

[Ferg]

I'm thinking that if Greece starts defaulting on its debts, Europe will start giving Cameron anything he asks for to keep us in and happy. You can already see European stances on the UK requests softening.
]

[leady]

not convinced - I would have thought that politically Cameron will insist on immunity to propping up the cash reserves of the Eurozone again. Having the referendum then for the UK to get whacked for another £Xbn as part of the EU to capitalise Eurozone banks would be massively damaging. Ergo I suspect the Greece aspect is the least of the worries.

The worst damage a brexit does is to the EU funding (screwing over North Europe) and the precedent.

[Orange]

If Greece starts defaulting?

[Inertiaman]

TO be fair the fact that they have and are defaulting and are exiting has been fairly well hidden in the TOP PAGE OF BUSINESS NEWS ON ALL NEWS SITES.

[Ferg]

They haven't defaulted yet. They combined their loan repayments into a big payment that's due at the end of the month... which they're technically allowed to do (but it's frowned upon)... unless I missed something.

[Inertiaman]

No you're right that was flippant in that they're not in default yet - but it's fairly clear from our government's reaction and indeed the tone of all talks - that they're not going to make it under the terms given. Everyone is limbering up for the bad news.