An independent Scots Military: the reality?

[Eja Cool8]

So the argument is starting to warm up a bit now, and we're starting to get some realistic numbers on what may be affordable, and what may not.

As a current serving British General said during Defence select committee questions though; "...how much we spend on defence really depends on how afraid we are.."

http://www.defencemanagement.com/new...y.asp?id=21167





Something you don't see many pics of; the nuke handling drydock at RNAD Coulport, not far from Faslane;

[Ashen]

And one man with a claymore who does not fear death

[Eja Cool8]

Salmond: "...send the nukes to the US.."

http://www.defencemanagement.com/new...y.asp?id=21201

[Harry Palmer]

Ours have British warheads - whey would we send them to the US?

[Goody]

Id be interested to know why Salmond thinks he can dictate a "no nukes in an independent scotland" policy. Surely an independent scotland would have an elected government which wouldnt necessarily have Salmond at the head..

Guys got a fucking ego the size of my cock

[Baby Bear]

Originally Posted by Eja Cool8

Salmond: "...send the nukes to the US.."

http://www.defencemanagement.com/new...y.asp?id=21201

I worked in there last year, very very interesting place!

[Eja Cool8]

Originally Posted by Harry Palmer

Ours have British warheads - whey would we send them to the US?

Part rhetoric on Salmond's part to help keep the CND crowd in the SNP (of whom two have left after the pro-NATO vote at conference the other day), part practicality, I suppose. It'd save new base construction in some out-of-the-way part of England or Wales, and the missiles are technically not 100% ours anyway, being part of a pool of 58 Tridents which are shared and swappable with the USA.

[Eja Cool8]

Originally Posted by Goody

Id be interested to know why Salmond thinks he can dictate a "no nukes in an independent scotland" policy. Surely an independent scotland would have an elected government which wouldnt necessarily have Salmond at the head..

Guys got a fucking ego the size of my cock

Aye, he tries to play nice on that point sometimes, but from time to time the old tendencies come to the fore...

[EvilGrin]

Originally Posted by Eja Cool8

It'd save new base construction in some out-of-the-way part of England or Wales.

Why'd we have to build a new base? Couldn't we retrofit/extend a bit of the attack sub pens at Devonport?

[Eja Cool8]

Originally Posted by EvilGrin

Why'd we have to build a new base? Couldn't we retrofit/extend a bit of the attack sub pens at Devonport?

Really? I'd love to know what the good folk of Devonport thought about that!

Bear in mind, the bombers are kept at RN Clyde for a good reason-nice quick, discreet access to the atlantic/Irish sea. Not even a fraction as busy as the south of England, and therefore easier to 'sanitise' prior to a sub heading out on patrol, and, of course, Faslane & Coulport themselves are out in the sticks = fewer complaints from potential voters about nuclear weapons in their midst....

[EvilGrin]

So where else is an option? The only other Royal Navy base is Portsmouth and that's not setup for subs. Perhaps purchase some of that prime sea front dock property at Barrow? Handy for spares and repairs with BAE next door.

[Eja Cool8]

Originally Posted by EvilGrin

So where else is an option? The only other Royal Navy base is Portsmouth and that's not setup for subs. Perhaps purchase some of that prime sea front dock property at Barrow? Handy for spares and repairs with BAE next door.

Where else indeed? That's part of the independence conundrum. It'll affect us, but it'll have an effect south of the border too. All other basing can be shifted for land & air forces without too much kerfuffle, but ICBMs & warheads? You really would want somewhere isolated and defensible, which means, probably, intruding into areas of natural beauty and starting from scratch with brand new basing-expensive, to say the least. The new jetty at Faslane for the Astutes cost £150m alone, that's just for tying up six SSNs;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/...st/8056728.stm

[Harry Palmer]

Eja, do you think the Scots are likely to vote for independence? probably needs a new thread but CBA.

[Eja Cool8]

Originally Posted by Harry Palmer

Eja, do you think the Scots are likely to vote for independence? probably needs a new thread but CBA.

Impossible to say right now. Historically, you'd be looking at 60-70% of votes against. The problem has always been though, that no-one really thought it was 'imminent' in any way, therefore the arguments have never really been developed, and all we've had has been loud rhetoric from both sides, 99% of it signifying bugger all.

Now, however, the vote is on, it's definitely going to happen, so minds are starting to focus that bit more on what it would all actually mean, other than border posts with England, manned by burly, kilted men in 'jimmy' wigs (for the tourists).

Finance: is it going to cost us? Or will we benefit individually, and as a nation, bearing in mind our share of the national debt and having to buy RBS off Westminster (probably)?

What currrency would/could we use?

What would our defence structure be? Should we have a referendum on buying the nukes off Britain, or do the SNP have the right to unilaterally ditch them?

Do we actually have the right of succession to the EU, as the SNP imply?

Oil & Gas; the vast bulk's in our waters, there'd have to be all sorts of business agreements reworked, but the SNP reckon there's about a £1tn asset base there, without any further discoveries.

Lots to think about, we need more hard facts and figures, and hopefully these'll be forthcoming over the next couple of years, until then, the only people who see the issue in black & white, frankly, are the ignorant blowhards.

[Goody]

Fortunately the SNP are rapidly ballsing up the campaign by actually almost being as big a bunch of pathological liars as the torys. Played

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...dvice-scotland

More interestingly on the off chance we did vote for it the regional divide would be rather funny. Id imagine youd have edinburgh and the borders massively in favour of staying, in which case my preference would be for a republic of glasgow breakaway...

[Inertiaman]

I think you might find the definition of "our waters" being quite sharply redefined following any succession.

[Goody]

Indeed somehow I cant seem an independent scotland getting quite as big a % of the oil as the SNPs are forecasting when theyre sending out leaflets promising every household an extra grand a year

[Inertiaman]

The assumption seems to be that the oil companies will simply redraw existing contracts against this new entity. Best of luck there.

[Eja Cool8]

Originally Posted by Inertiaman

I think you might find the definition of "our waters" being quite sharply redefined following any succession.

Well, under international law, if it's within 200miles, it's our exclusive economic area;



also see this, agreed in 1999 as part of the Devo bill;



Unless, of course, you intend to have it by force

[Inertiaman]

I think you'll find that's a law as pertains to the United Kingdom....

[Eja Cool8]

Originally Posted by Inertiaman

I think you'll find that's a law as pertains to the United Kingdom....

Yesss, aaaand?

The Scots border isn't going to suddenly start at Falkirk after any independence vote, and you're not going to see any major changes in offshore territory related to same either.

[Inertiaman]

Won't the offshore boundaries act will have to be entirely re-written though to apply to this new entity? Surely you can expect interested parties to attempt to capitalise on that? Forgetting boundary changes - you have to consider quotas, licencing, fees etc that have been applied to said recognised territories. All that gets torn up and remade right?

Fishing/oil/trade routes are far more complex than "this is mine, this is yours".

[Orange]

What currency? Is that a serious question?

£1trn in the UKCS North Sea? Lol.

[Eja Cool8]

Originally Posted by Inertiaman

Won't the offshore boundaries act will have to be entirely re-written though to apply to this new entity? Surely you can expect interested parties to attempt to capitalise on that? Forgetting boundary changes - you have to consider quotas, licencing, fees etc that have been applied to said recognised territories. All that gets torn up and remade right?

Fishing/oil/trade routes are far more complex than "this is mine, this is yours".

Absolutely. But you can't expect goodies from a nation state that doesn't want to give them away. A lot, fisheries for example, will depend on any EU membership, if we're in, they call those shots. As for Oil & Gas, the Yanks already tried to take the piss in that respect back in the 70s and were told to go and sit in the corner for ten minutes, resulting in a much better deal for us, and the rest of the UK. It's our card game, and we know what everyone's hand is

Back to the nukes; The Commons Scottish Affairs select committee reckon it'd take 20 years to re-base the bombers south of the border, resulting in zero operational capability for anything up to 20 years;

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...n-Trident.html

[Inertiaman]

Originally Posted by Eja Cool8

Absolutely. But you can't expect goodies from a nation state that doesn't want to give them away. A lot, fisheries for example, will depend on any EU membership, if we're in, they call those shots. As for Oil & Gas, the Yanks already tried to take the piss in that respect back in the 70s and were told to go and sit in the corner for ten minutes, resulting in a much better deal for us, and the rest of the UK. It's our card game, and we know what everyone's hand is

I'd have thought that it would be fairly easy to leave the north sea near-fallow and sweat it until a more amenable administration follows the one that's just been put up against the wall but I'm probably being cynical.

I'm sure the SNP have it all mapped out and the supermajors are simply shitting themselves.

[Orange]

I think the SNP needs to take a look at what happened the last time the UK tried to increase tax on the North Sea.

[mr_o]

Originally Posted by Goody

Fortunately the SNP are rapidly ballsing up the campaign by actually almost being as big a bunch of pathological liars as the torys. Played

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...dvice-scotland

More interestingly on the off chance we did vote for it the regional divide would be rather funny. Id imagine youd have edinburgh and the borders massively in favour of staying, in which case my preference would be for a republic of glasgow breakaway...

Good to see the cracks starting. The SNP can piss right off.

As for annexing Glasgow. Hell you can have that right now if you promise to take Livingston and Fife with you

[Goody]

Im in Edinburgh i was more talking about abandoning them to scrounge benefits off one another tbh.

[Scorpius]

Originally Posted by Eja Cool8

Salmond: "...send the nukes to the US.."

works for me,
takes about 4 minutes? need a deep cave to hide in afterwards mind you

[Eja Cool8]

Just as an FYI for all non-Scots, you do realise that there factions within the independence movement itself? For instance, there are a great number of people in the Highlands who like the idea of being wholly governed from Edinburgh as much as they like Westminster calling the shots. They'd like a Parliament in Inverness and for Gaelic to be the national language. Really.

And then there's Orkney & Shetland Who barely regard themselves as part of the UK in any respect, and, if Norway invaded, would likely welcome them with open arms as long-lost brethren..

An interesting wee article on "Scottishness";

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20048521